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Jesus' audience in John 14:12
- Thread starter 37818
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Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Wrong. If Jesus meant to limit this promise to just His disciples present with Him, He would have said, “Verily, verily I say unto you, you who believe on Me, the works that I do…”
Christians throughout history have done the works that Jesus did, so that proves you are in error, too.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Healed the sick!
Cast out demons!
Fed the hungry!
Led many to salvation!
Taught the Word!
37818
Well-Known Member
". . . He* that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he* do also; and greater . . . .
* Not a whosoever, but a he.
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But again, is there anything greater than saving someone? Absolutely not. We have never saved anyone, so I don’t think that verse is expressing exactly what you’re saying it is expressing. We never casted out demons, or healed anyone. If these things are done, it is He, not us, who does it.
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
Mark 16
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Acts 3
6 Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”
7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man’s feet and ankles became strong.
8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God.
Acts 16:18
And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Perhaps Jesus was speaking of the work of indwelling God Holy Spirit working through the Christian.
I agree there is no greater miracle than “dead in trespasses and sin” person being transformed by God Holy Spirit (regeneration) so that they are enabled to instant the gospel and have faith in Jesus unto salvation
Peace to you
I agree there is no greater miracle than “dead in trespasses and sin” person being transformed by God Holy Spirit (regeneration) so that they are enabled to instant the gospel and have faith in Jesus unto salvation
Peace to you
Oneness Pentecostals used that for years in drinking strychnine and handling snakes, yet many died. My B-I-L had a friend die handling a rattler. Jamie Coots of Snake Salvation died by a rattler bite. So, when are you going to start doing these things?
Apostolic gifts my friend. I don’t deny these things happened. When are you going to St. Jude’s and start curing kids of cancer? I mean, if the Apostles healed the sick, you can too, right? So hop to it!
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Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
If I started healing the kids, I might be sued by St. Jude hospital.
But I do not think it is wise to mock the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said those who believe on Him will do what He did and even greater. There is no getting around that promise by adding to it “if he is an apostle” or “until the original apostles die”.
Reports from missionaries describe how healings in the name of Jesus are what convince tribal members to consider Jesus as the truth and to forsake their false idols.
In America, Christianity has too often degenerated into a non-supernatural house of philosophy, just creeds and doctrines that are argued about, with not much power, no miracles, no deliverance.
I’m not mocking the Holy Spirit, but those who use Him to further their agenda. Notice in these accounts it’s done thousands of miles away, where no one there can deny their claims. Plus, if they are being healed thousands of miles away, why aren’t they doing it there where they are telling these stories? If it works in other countries, it will work here to, right?
True story: I work in a hospital lab, and one time several years ago, probably 10+, we had to have a STAT courier run for blood to do a cross match on a patient. I don’t know what brought it up, but the courier told a story by A. A. Allen, who I hadn’t heard of at that time. He claimed to have went by a funeral and decided to stop and go in. He said he got the body out and stood it on its feet, and it fell flat to the floor, face down. He picked it back up, dusted it off, and brought it back to life. Yeah, riiiiiight!!! Why did he stop at just one funeral. Why not take those ppl there he told this story to, and go to another funeral and do it again?
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
See below in red bold lettering.
Then we have the sober mind of Gill, from: John 14 Gill's Exposition
John 14:12
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me,
the Works that I Do shall he do also;
and Greater Works than these shall he do; because I Go unto My Father."
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me,...."
Having mentioned His Miracles as Proofs of His Deity, He Assures His Disciples, in order to comfort them under the loss of His Bodily Presence, that they should do the same, and greater works;
*for we are not to understand these words of everyone that believes in Christ, of every private believer in Him, *but only of the Apostles, and each of them, that were *true believers in Him:
*See below where and how this is clearly taught in Mark 16:11-20.
"to whom He says;
"the Works that I Do shall he do also"; he shall raise the dead, heal all manner of diseases, and cast out devils; things which Christ Gave His Apostles Power to do, when He first Gave them a Commission to Preach the Gospel, and when He Renewed and Enlarged it: and which they did Perform, not in their own name, and by their own power, but in the Name, and by the Power of Christ:
"and Greater Works than these shall he do"; meaning, not greater in Nature and Kind, but more in number; for the Apostles, in a long series of time, and course of years, went about Preaching the Gospel, not in Judea only, but in all the World; "God also bearing them witness with Signs and Wonders, and Divers Miracles and Gifts of the Holy Ghost", Hebrews 2:4, wherever they went:
"though perhaps by these Greater Works may be meant the many instances of Conversion, which the Apostles were Instrumental in, and which were more in number than those which were under our Lord's Personal Ministry:
"besides, the Conversion of a sinner is a Greater Work
than any of the Miracles of Raising the dead, &c.
for this includes in it all Miracles:
"here we may see a sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, Quickened;
"one born blind made to See;
"one who was deaf to the threatenings of the law,
and to the Charming Voice of the Gospel, made to Hear, so as to Live;
"and one that had the spreading leprosy of sin all over him,
cleansed from it by the Blood of the Lamb yea,
"though a Miracle in Nature is an Instance and Proof of Divine Power,
yet the Conversion of a sinner, which is a Miracle in Grace,
is not only an Instance of the Power of God, and of the Greatness of it,
but of the Exceeding Greatness of it: and the rather
one may be induced to give in to this sense of the passage,
since it is added, as a reason,
"because I go to My Father"; and upon My Ascension the Spirit will be Given,
to you, which shall not only Enable you to Perform Miracles,
as Proofs of your Apostleship, and the Doctrine you Preach,
but which shall Powerfully Attend the Gospel
to the Conversion of multitudes of souls."
Alan Dale Gross
Active Member
Mark 16:11-20;
11; "And they (the Apostles), when they (the Apostles) had heard that He was Alive,
and had been seen of her, (the Apostles) believed not.
Jesus Appears to Two Disciples.
12; "After that He Appeared in another Form unto two of them (the Two Disciples),
as they (the Two Disciples),walked, and went into the country.
13; "And they (the Two Disciples),went and told it unto the residue (the Apostles): neither believed they (the Apostles) them (the Two Disciples).
The Great Commission.
14; "Afterward He Appeared unto the Eleven (Apostles)
as they (the Apostles) sat at meat,
and upbraided them (the Apostles) with their unbelief and hardness of heart,
because they (the Apostles) believed not them which had seen Him after He was Risen."
Jesus speaks to His Apostles and Gave them (the Apostles Assembled in Cooperate Capacity as Jesus' first Called Out Assembly with Authority to do the Business of God there in Jerusalem) His Great Commission
15; "And He said unto them (the Apostles Assembled in Cooperate Capacity), because Jesus told them (the Apostles Assembled in Cooperate Capacity) that He would be with 'them' until the End of the Age so that Great Commission is Bestowed on the Lord's church, not those assembled Apostles themselves, who would all obviously die before the End of the Age,
"Go ye into all the World, and Preach the Gospel to every creature."
Jesus' next Statement regards those who the Apostles had Preached the Gospel to, who were said to be saved when God Granted them Repentance and they 'believed' in Jesus as the means of Salvation; then, afterwards followed the example of their Lord Jesus, to be baptized by the Authority God Gave His New testament churches, through John the Baptist;
16; "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned."
When the newly saved obey the Command to be Scripturally Baptized, they are demonstrating that they are following the Holy Spirit, which is the very strong indicator that they have been saved.
If they refuse to be baptized their is indication there that there is something amiss with their 'believing not', so they must be damned.
Then next, the term 'believe' here concerns the saved Apostles and their 'believing' that God Gave them the Supernatural Instantaneous Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Ghost, in and around Pentecost, for them to be verified as being Servants of God, after Jesus had Rebuked those Apostles' "for their unbelief" in regard to Jesus had Raised from the dead'
Then, again here, speaking to the Apostles who now are 'believing', as in Matthew 17:21, "Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting", etc.
Just after Jesus had Rebuked those Apostles' "for their unbelief" in the verses before;
14; "Afterward He Appeared unto the Eleven as they sat at meat,
and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart,
because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was Risen."
These Supernatural Instantaneous Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Ghost are the signs which Jesus now says would be what followed His Apostles who He had Given those Special Healing Gifts to, as we see here in Hebrews; "God also Bearing them Witness with Signs and Wonders, and Divers Miracles and Gifts of the Holy Ghost", Hebrews 2:4, wherever THOSE APOSTLES WENT.
There is no message or indication that these signs had any relationship to any and every soul that would EVER be saved when they SAVINGLY, SPIRITUALLY ARE ENABLED to 'believe' (lost souls being saved) the Gospel in Salvation;
17; "And these signs shall follow them (THE APOSTLES) that believe;
In My Name shall they (THE APOSTLES) cast out devils;
they (THE APOSTLES) shall speak with new tongues;
18 "They (THE APOSTLES) shall take up serpents;
and if they (THE APOSTLES) drink any deadly thing,
it shall not hurt them (THE APOSTLES);
they (THE APOSTLES) shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall Recover."
The Ascension AND THE CONFIRMATION that Jesus had just Intended these Promises of the Supernatural Instantaneous Miraculous Gifts of the Holy Ghost, with Signs and Wonders, and Divers Miracles and OTHER SPECIAL Gifts of the Holy Ghost,
WERE GIVEN UNTO THEM (THE APOSTLES);
19; "So then after the Lord had Spoken unto them (THE APOSTLES), He was Received up into Heaven, and Sat on the Right Hand of God."
20; "And they (THE APOSTLES WHO HAD JUST BEEN GIVEN THE GREAT COMMISSION AS THE FIST OF THE LORD'S NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH ASSEMBLIES) went forth, and preached every where, the Lord Working with them (THE APOSTLES), and Confirming the Word with Signs following (THEM, THE APOSTLES). Amen."
There is no other way to achieve a more Divine Interpretation, with the discernment and understanding of what kind of church assembly Jesus Founded and ORDAINED AND COMMISSIONED TO DO HIS WORK ON EARTH, BUY THE AUTHORITY OF GOD, BEING MOSTLY LOST, TO THE Great American and Christian World Apostasy, of course.
Most saved individuals have not obeyed the Command of God
to be Scripturally baptized, by the Authority of God.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
After embalming?
Amazing, his ability to put life and blood back into a body!!
I’m more amazed at how ppl can be duped. Look up A. A. Allen. He was a doozy. I had never heard of that guy until that night. That story was told to me probably 10 or more years ago.
They did do greater then him, as he was localized i n the human flesh at that time, and now thru us he can and does outreach to many more with good news
37818
Well-Known Member
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
This is as silly as saying the new birth is only available to Nicodemus, to whom Jesus was speaking when He said, “ye must be born again.” Or saying the sermon on the mount was only applicable to those who were on the mount when Jesus spoke. Twisting the scripture in this way is highly offensive to God and is noticed by Him.
Jesus spoke to His disciples, but said “he that believeth on me” … not “you disciples that believeth on me”, so as usual, Jesus was making the promise not just to His disciples, but to all who believe on Him.
This promise has been fulfilled throughout history, which is full of reports of Christians healing and other performing miracles.
37818
Well-Known Member
You're silly. Jesus to Nicodemus in verse 7 proves you to be wrong.
John 3:7, Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.