-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Where Did the Mailman Drop the Letter of James,
- Thread starter JD731
- Start date
I'm sure it was read in local Jerusalem synagogues and such and, like other books, passed around and on.
Acts 8:1. At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.'
Acts 11:19. 'Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen travelled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Cyrene....'
It seems likely to me that James wrote to these people. Some commentators have surmised that the letter was originally written in Hebrew, but there is no evidence of this.
Thank Martin, but 12 tribes?
I suppose that there were some out of all twelve tribes who were 'scattered out of Jerusalem.
A reading of the letter suggests an early date. He would appear to have heard the preaching of the Lord Jesus, and there is no discernible (to me) influence from Peter, Paul or John's letters. Yet the letter is written in idiomatic, stylish Greek. It's quite hard to read in the original (for me, at any rate!)
But I'm interested to hear what you think.
Read, 'the circumcision':
Galatians Chapter 2
9 | and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision; |
James was an apostle to the Jews.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I am less than 0.001% expert at any of this, but “to the 12 tribes” sounds like an idiom for “to all the decedents of Jacob”.
| John 7:35 | Then the Jews said to one another, “Where is this man about to go that we will not find him? Surely he is not going to go to our people dispersed among the Greeks and teach the Greeks, is he? |
| James 1:1 | James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes in the dispersion: Greetings. |
| 1 Peter 1:1 | Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who live as refugees of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, |
Hallelujah!
And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. Hosea 1:6
Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure. Hosea 8:9
Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Hos 1:9
And I will scatter you among the heathen, [Goy, Gentiles] and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Lev 26:33 [Both houses, Judah and Israel}
I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Deut 32:26 Question? remembrance of who? Did Haman remember who some of them were? Who, how did he identify them? Did it have anything to do with the law? Did A Hitler remember who some of them were? How did he identify them? The law?
Hosea 8:12 I have written to him [Ephraim as representative of house of Israel] the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
Who did men remember and who did they cease to remember?
IMHO the letter of James is written to both housed, those remembered as the people of God and those not remembered as the people of God.
James says of those being called from the twelve tribes, V18 a kind of firstfruits.
I believe the 144000 of Rev 14:1,3 from the twelve tribes are also called the firstfruits in V 4
Hosea 1:10,11 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Interesting whatever one draws from the Word of God.
Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure. Hosea 8:9
Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Hos 1:9
And I will scatter you among the heathen, [Goy, Gentiles] and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. Lev 26:33 [Both houses, Judah and Israel}
I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men: Deut 32:26 Question? remembrance of who? Did Haman remember who some of them were? Who, how did he identify them? Did it have anything to do with the law? Did A Hitler remember who some of them were? How did he identify them? The law?
Hosea 8:12 I have written to him [Ephraim as representative of house of Israel] the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
Who did men remember and who did they cease to remember?
IMHO the letter of James is written to both housed, those remembered as the people of God and those not remembered as the people of God.
James says of those being called from the twelve tribes, V18 a kind of firstfruits.
I believe the 144000 of Rev 14:1,3 from the twelve tribes are also called the firstfruits in V 4
Hosea 1:10,11 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
Interesting whatever one draws from the Word of God.
They went to the same place ,Asia Minor. James wrote his letter in AD 45, the first of the NT epistles The twelve tribes were "scattered" among the gentiles, but they remained distinctly Israelites nonetheless, even after they were converted. The believers among them represented the "remnant" of Israel. This is one of four major prophetic themes in scriptures and at once identifies what Paul means in his letter to the Galatians, which he wrote in AD 49, the first of his 13 letters to the gentiles, when he called them the "Israel of God."
Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
This Israel of God are those of the 12 tribes who are "new creatures" in Christ Jesus, having been born again by the gospel of Christ just like the gentiles, but as you have noted, distinctly the same church.
Anyone, in my opinion, who would have understanding about the church of Jesus Christ would also need to take the approach that you are taking and keep these truths separated in the apostolic age. There remained a national identity for Judah during these years but in the foreknowledge of God they would not receive him and be converted. So God would work out his redemptive purposes for Israel through these 10 tribes that that were represented with all the tribes (Paul, for instance, a Benjamite, was born and raised in this region).
Look at the last verse in Hosea 1;
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
THEN represents a break. to be a son of God requires a new birth.\
Paul would say in Ephesians, a city in that area, that the church manifests the wisdom of God that takes the breath of angel and spiritual entities when they observe it. It takes my breath too.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world (aion = age = world) hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
NOTE: it would not surprise me if Paul is not thinking in terms of the second age of three ages, the one from the flood to the day of the Lord.
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
We must know that Israel is the tool in God's hand to bring salvation to the whole world.
Famous Quotes - Jesus Christ - salvation is of the Jews - Jn 5:24
Yeah:
Acts Chapter 15
21 | For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. |
Acts Chapter 2
5 | Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. |
Revelation Chapter 17
1 | And there came one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls, and spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; |
Wrong. The "new creature" is 'The Israel of God', singular, "one new man", "one flock", where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.
Galatians Chapter 6
15 | For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. |
16 | And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. |
Philippians Chapter 3
3 | for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: |
Point please?
This is a very good opportunity to bring the precision of God ordained words to your attention. I call you attention to your quote in Gal 6. Notice the wording there. The circumcision in the churches at Galatia were not the only ones who were led away by the dissimulation of the Judaizers who were insisting one must be circumcised to be saved. This is a real problem for the apostles to deal with in the area of Asia Minor where the 12 scattered tribes of Israel are located. This is not as much a problem in the churches in Europe. Why would gentiles argue about circumcision? Paul would never call the church at Rome, or Corinth, or Philippi the "Israel of God." They were gentile churches meaning they were mostly gentiles in the membership.
1 Thess 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
So read this verse you referenced and read it with discernment.
Galatians Chapter 6
15 | For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. |
16 | And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. |
The "and" in the verse is a conjunction. It includes the "them" while making a distinction. Paul's ministry is to gentiles while the 12 apostles ministering in this area of the world are preaching to the Jews because that is where the Jews of the dispersion are. Those Jews who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ and enjoy the liberty from the Law. The Jews who have believed and been born again as opposed to those who have not. Circumcision or not circumcision is a non issues in who is saved.
From this standpoint it is important to identify to whom the postman delivers a letter written by a man to the 12 tribes of Israel scattered abroad . You did not answer that question.
At any given time during the history of Israel there were a few of them among the many of their people who were loyal and faithful to God, with whom they had a covenant relationship which granted them privileges and promises no other people on the earth had. It also made them more responsible to be faithful and obedient to him. He had birthed them as a people for a 4-fold purpose that we can discuss later. During their long history there were times that very few faithful among them could be found in Israel. but through these few the hope for Israel was kept alive.These became known as "the remnant." It is a theme of the OT prophets and we find it during the age of grace because Israel has not changed in character and only a few were willing to repent and trust Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, who came to save the whole nation. After his resurrection he called on "every one of them to be saved and, of course, they refused.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized "every one of you" in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There is a penalty down the road for refusing.
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, (in context that is every Israelite soul) which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Because of the covenant promises to Israel from God and because he considered the collective nation his "son" his covenant promises will not be fulfilled until everyone of them are saved from their sins and separated from them.
There has not been a conversion of every one of Israel yet, but in order for the restitution of all things there will have to be. This is what the Great Tribulation will accomplish. It will purge Israel of every unbeliever and all that are left alive, though few in number, will be saved and for the first time, and forever, all Israel will be saved.
Here is the dynamic for gentiles, who have never had a covenant promise of salvation directly from God. He is never going to save us nationally, but he does offer salvation through the gospel to each of us. Understand this in the context of the beginning of gentile evangelism and the extent of it; Read this carefully from the KJV.
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them (that is Paul's gentile converts on his first missionary undertaking), and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. (he is referring to Acts 10)
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. (the Jews needed to know about these signs to confirm their authenticity-the Jews require a sign)
The reader need to believe these words and follow the logic.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this (after evangelizing the gentiles, an act that still goes on today) I will return, and (and do what?) will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
The gentiles are not to violate Jewish sensibilities. There are Jew and gentile Christians in the world.
I have more to say about this in the context of James and the 12 tribes of Israel. The doctrines cannot be known without knowing these things.
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The 12 tribes of Israel is not a myth. Today, since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Jewish converts to the Christian faith, are the "remnant" and they have a name in this age one will find in Romans 11:5. Read about it there. (surprise: it would appear in v 5 because that is the number of God for grace)
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized "every one of you" in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
There is a penalty down the road for refusing.
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, (in context that is every Israelite soul) which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Because of the covenant promises to Israel from God and because he considered the collective nation his "son" his covenant promises will not be fulfilled until everyone of them are saved from their sins and separated from them.
There has not been a conversion of every one of Israel yet, but in order for the restitution of all things there will have to be. This is what the Great Tribulation will accomplish. It will purge Israel of every unbeliever and all that are left alive, though few in number, will be saved and for the first time, and forever, all Israel will be saved.
Here is the dynamic for gentiles, who have never had a covenant promise of salvation directly from God. He is never going to save us nationally, but he does offer salvation through the gospel to each of us. Understand this in the context of the beginning of gentile evangelism and the extent of it; Read this carefully from the KJV.
Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them (that is Paul's gentile converts on his first missionary undertaking), and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. (he is referring to Acts 10)
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. (the Jews needed to know about these signs to confirm their authenticity-the Jews require a sign)
The reader need to believe these words and follow the logic.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this (after evangelizing the gentiles, an act that still goes on today) I will return, and (and do what?) will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
The gentiles are not to violate Jewish sensibilities. There are Jew and gentile Christians in the world.
I have more to say about this in the context of James and the 12 tribes of Israel. The doctrines cannot be known without knowing these things.
Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The 12 tribes of Israel is not a myth. Today, since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Jewish converts to the Christian faith, are the "remnant" and they have a name in this age one will find in Romans 11:5. Read about it there. (surprise: it would appear in v 5 because that is the number of God for grace)
Last edited: