Calvinism needs to add words to scripture

atpollard said:

Are we going to apply the same metric to Martin Luther and rejoin the Catholic Church?

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What metric? Throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

I'm not suggesting to throw a man's life work out because he acted out in a portion of his life things that we only experience by breaking those Laws, Spiritually.

We just know that those portions of our lives lived sinning deeply, are not being Led by the Holy Spirit.

DaveXR650 said:

If you reject Calvinism, are you really prepared to go with the logical necessity of a hypothetical situation where God says to Jesus something like " Well, you have atoned for everyone. Now let's see if anyone is willing at this point to come aboard and accept our invitation".

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The end logic of that scenario includes the possibility that after Jesus Came, died, was buried, and rose again, that NNE WOULD EVER COME TO CHRIST AND HE WOULD HAVE UTTERLY DIED IN VAIN.

Ben1445 said:

My understanding of Calvinism is that they couldn’t be turned away because they were never called, never regenerated, never elected or chosen, never been given the opportunity to reject a God that they never were given the opportunity to come to. According to Calvinism they couldn’t believe in Christ because they are not elected to.

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Certainty, Not Innocence: ​

Divine Decree and Human Responsibility​

"Saying it’s unjust for God to Judge sinners because they can't help sinning is like saying a man who borrowed $20 million, squandered it in Vegas, and now claims he shouldn't have to repay because he’s broke is being treated unfairly.

"Our inability is Moral, not Mechanical. We will not come to God, not because we lack the faculties,
but because we love darkness rather than Light (John 3:19). God is not holding us back.

"That’s precisely why Grace is Grace, God Gives what we would never choose on our own.

Visitor:
I’m confused by your response. Is it not true that we have a Sin Nature because God Decreed it would be so?

"And isn’t it true according to your system that one cannot Repent unless God Regenerates them first?

"Isn’t it also true that God Judges us for not Repenting of our sin?

"If the above are all true, then definitionally God would have to be unjust. 

"To my knowledge, all orthodox segments of Christianity agree that we have a Moral Inability.

"The difference is, reformed thought says
that you can’t even believe in the One Who can Save you, unless God Allows you to.

Response:
The confusion here comes from collapsing God’s Decree into Moral Culpability, which Scripture never does.

"A clear Biblical example is the crucifixion itself. Acts 2:23 and Acts 4:27–28 explicitly declare
that Jesus was Delivered up according to the Definite Plan and Foreknowledge of God, Predestined by the Father.

"Yet the very same passages identify the human actors as lawless and wicked men
who are held fully accountable for what they did.

"Scripture affirms both without hesitation.

"God’s Sovereign Decree establishes certainty, not innocence.

"We hold both to be True because the Bible does.

"The inability to hold them together is not a Biblical problem, but a theological one.

"God did not coerce those actors. They carried out the crucifixion willingly and voluntarily.

You said, “Reformed thought says that you can’t even believe in the one who can save you unless God allows you to.”

"Again, Scripture never treats Inability as an excuse when that Inability is rooted in a Corrupt Will.

"Jesus says plainly that sinners cannot come to Him, not because they lack faculties, but because they will not (John 5:40).

"They love darkness and hate the Light (John 3:19).

"This is why Christ says, “No man can come unto me, unless the Father Who Sent Me Grants it” (John 6:65).

"That is not a theological system. That is Christ’s Own Explanation of unbelief.

"The Giving of the Father to the Son precedes their coming to Faith in Him, according to our Lord Himself.

"And in the same context Jesus Declares,
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me” (John 6:37).

"Not some of those Given, but all."

Ben1445 said:

And ‘this is why your conference speaker must publicly justify his decision to evangelize. Because in spite of teaching that salvation is limited to those who God chose, he now offers a wide invitation which is right for him to do. I commend him for it. But I don’t understand how a Calvinist can justify living in both worlds at the same time. I gathered, in spite of his own declaration, that he doesn’t really understand it either.

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"Does Calvinism Kill Evangelism? ​

A Conversation About Faith, Grace, and the Gospel Call"​

Objection:​

"Calvinism, in practice, teaches that there’s “nothing you can do” to be saved.

"This leaves people thinking they must wait passively for God to Act.

"It undermines the clear Biblical call to respond in Faith, as though Faith isn’t necessary or isn’t something we ourselves must do. But Scripture presents Faith as imperative—the means by which we access God’s Grace.

Response:​

"Thank you for your thoughtful concern.
But I must respectfully clarify that this is a misrepresentation of what Calvinism actually teaches.

"You suggest Calvinists believe there's "nothing I can do" and therefore downplay the necessity of Faith.
That’s simply false.

"The heart of the Gospel we Preach is this:
we are Saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8–9).

"No one is Justified without Faith. No one is Saved who does not Repent and Believe the Gospel.

"The Apostle Paul said it clearly: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be Saved” (Acts 16:31).

"Calvinists affirm this unapologetically, because Scripture does.

"As for the concern about passivity: the idea that the Doctrine of Election leads to Spiritual Inactivity is also untrue.

"Even John Calvin addressed this when he said:

“How do we know that God has Elected us before the Creation of the World? By believing in Jesus Christ.”

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"We do not teach that people are Saved apart from Faith and Repentance.

"Rather, we insist that everyone who Repents and Believes the Gospel will be Saved, without exception.

"If someone claims that Faith and Repentance are unnecessary, they’re not representing Calvinism.

They’re denying the Gospel.

Objection:​

"But this is exactly what I was taught, over and over from pulpits: “There is nothing you can do.”

"It may not reflect technical theology, but in practice,
Calvinism teaches that we are passive, even in responding to the Gospel.

"According to Calvinism’s first point, we can’t even choose to believe.
So, practically speaking, there is nothing we can do.

"Faith in that system becomes something done to us—not something Commanded.

"And yet in Scripture, Faith is almost always in the imperative.

Response:​

"Thank you again for pressing the issue. This is important.

"But your critique doesn’t account for what historic, confessional Calvinism actually teaches, (nor what we do in practice) especially regarding Preaching and the necessity of Faith.

"You ask: Why Preach if man can do nothing?

"Because Preaching is the very Means God has Ordained to bring the Spiritually dead to Life.

"As Paul writes:

“How will they believe in Him of Whom they have not Heard? And how will they hear without a Preacher?” (Romans 10:14)
“Faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the Word of Christ.” (Romans 10:17)

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"The Doctrine of Election is not a substitute for the Gospel, it’s the reason the Gospel Succeeds.

"No one is Saved by Election alone. Election is God’s Eternal Decree,
but it is through the Gospel that He Brings His Elect to Faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13–14).

"What Confessional Reformed Theology Actually Teaches"​

“Faith, thus Receiving and Resting on Christ and His Righteousness, is the alone Instrument of Justification.”
— Westminster Confession of Faith 11.2

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“The Grace of Faith... is the Work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily Wrought by the ministry of the Word...”
— Westminster Confession of Faith 14.1

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"Every true Calvinist preaches and calls sinners to Repent and believe. It’s not optional, it’s essential.

"I do this every time I proclaim the Gospel: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

"We believe God uses that very Call to Awaken Faith in dead hearts (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).

"As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4:6, “God, Who said ‘Let Light Shine out of darkness,’ has Shone in our hearts...”

"What You Described Is Not Calvinism, It’s Hyper-Calvinism"​

"Denying the need to Preach or the need to call sinners to Faith is not Calvinism.

"It's a distortion that historic Reformed churches have always condemned, just as we reject Arminianism.

"Anyone who says we shouldn’t call sinners to believe and repent has misunderstood Christianity itself.

Note:
"Anyone who says we shouldn’t call sinners to believe and repent", by Preaching the Gospel, HATES THE GOSPEL
AND THE GOD WHO COMMANDS HIS MINISTERS TO PREACH THE GOSPEL,
BY THEM BEING DISOBEDIANT TO THAT SAME GOD THEY THEMSELVES PROCLAIM TO BE SOVEREIGN.

"That is a denial of the Gospel, not a faithful application of Election.

"We Preach to everyone, because God has Chosen to Save His people through the Preaching of the Gospel.

Note: Election is not Salvation.

Election doesn’t make Preaching unnecessary, Election makes Preaching Effective.

"And everyone who turns to Christ in Faith will be Saved.

“God now Commands all people everywhere to Repent.” (Acts 17:30)
“Whoever believes in Him shall not Perish but have Eternal Life.” (John 3:16)

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"God Holds no one back from Believing."

Alan Dale Gross said:

Certainty, Not Innocence:​

Divine Decree and Human Responsibility​

"Saying it’s unjust for God to Judge sinners because they can't help sinning is like saying a man who borrowed $20 million, squandered it in Vegas, and now claims he shouldn't have to repay because he’s broke is being treated unfairly.

"Our inability is Moral, not Mechanical. We will not come to God, not because we lack the faculties,
but because we love darkness rather than Light (John 3:19). God is not holding us back.

"That’s precisely why Grace is Grace, God Gives what we would never choose on our own.

Visitor:
I’m confused by your response. Is it not true that we have a Sin Nature because God Decreed it would be so?

"And isn’t it true according to your system that one cannot Repent unless God Regenerates them first?

"Isn’t it also true that God Judges us for not Repenting of our sin?

"If the above are all true, then definitionally God would have to be unjust. 

"To my knowledge, all orthodox segments of Christianity agree that we have a Moral Inability.

"The difference is, reformed thought says
that you can’t even believe in the One Who can Save you, unless God Allows you to.

Response:
The confusion here comes from collapsing God’s Decree into Moral Culpability, which Scripture never does.

"A clear Biblical example is the crucifixion itself. Acts 2:23 and Acts 4:27–28 explicitly declare
that Jesus was Delivered up according to the Definite Plan and Foreknowledge of God, Predestined by the Father.

"Yet the very same passages identify the human actors as lawless and wicked men
who are held fully accountable for what they did.

"Scripture affirms both without hesitation.

"God’s Sovereign Decree establishes certainty, not innocence.

"We hold both to be True because the Bible does.

"The inability to hold them together is not a Biblical problem, but a theological one.

"God did not coerce those actors. They carried out the crucifixion willingly and voluntarily.

You said, “Reformed thought says that you can’t even believe in the one who can save you unless God allows you to.”

"Again, Scripture never treats Inability as an excuse when that Inability is rooted in a Corrupt Will.

"Jesus says plainly that sinners cannot come to Him, not because they lack faculties, but because they will not (John 5:40).

"They love darkness and hate the Light (John 3:19).

"This is why Christ says, “No man can come unto me, unless the Father Who Sent Me Grants it” (John 6:65).

"That is not a theological system. That is Christ’s Own Explanation of unbelief.

"The Giving of the Father to the Son precedes their coming to Faith in Him, according to our Lord Himself.

"And in the same context Jesus Declares,
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me” (John 6:37).

"Not some of those Given, but all."

Click to expand...

I have never said that God is unjust to judge sinners.

And all of the saints delivered to Christ will come to Him. So will all the sinners come to Him. So will all the things in heaven and in earth.
When the saints come into His possession, they are adopted.
When the sinners come into His possession they are judged.
When heaven and earth come into His possession, He will do with them whatever is just.
This is the meaning of all things shall come to me. If it meant only elect persons coming, you would find a colon instead of a semi colon

Alan Dale Gross said:

"Does Calvinism Kill Evangelism?​

A Conversation About Faith, Grace, and the Gospel Call"​

Objection:​

"Calvinism, in practice, teaches that there’s “nothing you can do” to be saved.

"This leaves people thinking they must wait passively for God to Act.

"It undermines the clear Biblical call to respond in Faith, as though Faith isn’t necessary or isn’t something we ourselves must do. But Scripture presents Faith as imperative—the means by which we access God’s Grace.

Response:​

"Thank you for your thoughtful concern.
But I must respectfully clarify that this is a misrepresentation of what Calvinism actually teaches.

"You suggest Calvinists believe there's "nothing I can do" and therefore downplay the necessity of Faith.
That’s simply false.

"The heart of the Gospel we Preach is this:
we are Saved by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8–9).

"No one is Justified without Faith. No one is Saved who does not Repent and Believe the Gospel.

"The Apostle Paul said it clearly: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be Saved” (Acts 16:31).

"Calvinists affirm this unapologetically, because Scripture does.

"As for the concern about passivity: the idea that the Doctrine of Election leads to Spiritual Inactivity is also untrue.

"Even John Calvin addressed this when he said:

"We do not teach that people are Saved apart from Faith and Repentance.

"Rather, we insist that everyone who Repents and Believes the Gospel will be Saved, without exception.

"If someone claims that Faith and Repentance are unnecessary, they’re not representing Calvinism.

They’re denying the Gospel.

Objection:​

"But this is exactly what I was taught, over and over from pulpits: “There is nothing you can do.”

"It may not reflect technical theology, but in practice,
Calvinism teaches that we are passive, even in responding to the Gospel.

"According to Calvinism’s first point, we can’t even choose to believe.
So, practically speaking, there is nothing we can do.

"Faith in that system becomes something done to us—not something Commanded.

"And yet in Scripture, Faith is almost always in the imperative.

Response:​

"Thank you again for pressing the issue. This is important.

"But your critique doesn’t account for what historic, confessional Calvinism actually teaches, (nor what we do in practice) especially regarding Preaching and the necessity of Faith.

"You ask: Why Preach if man can do nothing?

"Because Preaching is the very Means God has Ordained to bring the Spiritually dead to Life.

"As Paul writes:

"The Doctrine of Election is not a substitute for the Gospel, it’s the reason the Gospel Succeeds.

"No one is Saved by Election alone. Election is God’s Eternal Decree,
but it is through the Gospel that He Brings His Elect to Faith (2 Thessalonians 2:13–14).

"What Confessional Reformed Theology Actually Teaches"​

"Every true Calvinist preaches and calls sinners to Repent and believe. It’s not optional, it’s essential.

"I do this every time I proclaim the Gospel: “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

"We believe God uses that very Call to Awaken Faith in dead hearts (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).

"As Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4:6, “God, Who said ‘Let Light Shine out of darkness,’ has Shone in our hearts...”

"What You Described Is Not Calvinism, It’s Hyper-Calvinism"​

"Denying the need to Preach or the need to call sinners to Faith is not Calvinism.

"It's a distortion that historic Reformed churches have always condemned, just as we reject Arminianism.

"Anyone who says we shouldn’t call sinners to believe and repent has misunderstood Christianity itself.

Note:
"Anyone who says we shouldn’t call sinners to believe and repent", by Preaching the Gospel, HATES THE GOSPEL
AND THE GOD WHO COMMANDS HIS MINISTERS TO PREACH THE GOSPEL,
BY THEM BEING DISOBEDIANT TO THAT SAME GOD THEY THEMSELVES PROCLAIM TO BE SOVEREIGN.

"That is a denial of the Gospel, not a faithful application of Election.

"We Preach to everyone, because God has Chosen to Save His people through the Preaching of the Gospel.

Note: Election is not Salvation.

Election doesn’t make Preaching unnecessary, Election makes Preaching Effective.

"And everyone who turns to Christ in Faith will be Saved.

"God Holds no one back from Believing."

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Thank you for that exercise in mental gymnastics.
I am not a fan though, of word games and mental contortion.

Do you have any of your own thoughts? From what source do you copy and paste all of your material? Surely you would like others to read what you have since it is important enough for you to share.

But I usually pass over your posts because they lack any clear difference of who says what.
Your posts seem to be a hodgepodge of information that you intend to be stepping stones, but they are disjointed enough to make them leaps too long to make. You don’t supply enough context.
It may be merely your format that makes it difficult to make sense of, but I don’t often find any help in your content. Because of this I usually pass over it oftener as I do with Oseas3.
Concise answers are better.


And hypercalvinism is just someone taking Calvinism seriously.
I understand that there are different definitions. I may be able to make different definitions for tulip that make it conformable to Scripture.

I would like for once to see a Calvinist straiten out what they call a hyper Calvinist. I think that if they did more of this, it would help the non Calvinist understand the difference.
I don’t have the credentials to start that thread.

Psalty said:

Its about quite a bit more than that, even for a compatibalist! I have listened to you and many others quite a bit and if this defined calvinism, everyone would be one.

No there are far more severe differences. That was clarified for me in this thread.

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That could account for Spurgeon being popular with Calvinists as well as fundamentalists. The same thing could be said of Horatius Bonar and John Bunyan. And it could account for Martyn Lloyd-Jones cautioning fellow Calvinists not to let discussions of determinism overwhelm everything else.

And yes, since what we call Calvinism is broad, it could also account for the less than flattering things some Calvinists on this board have said about Spurgeon, and even John Owen. In fact, the most viscous attacks I have had on this forum have been from Calvinists, especially the time when a Calvinist came on and blasted some Baptist for using Rev. 3:20, "I stand at the door and knock" for evangelism and I pointed out about 4 different Calvinist Puritan preachers who did the exact same thing with that passage.

I recommend reading the Puritans and the later guys like Spurgeon and Bonar and look for how often deterministic philosophy is put forth compared to just basic good teaching. You have undoubtably already read the Calvinist book in largest circulation, Bunyans' "Pilgrims Progress". How much of that is devoted to converting you to a deterministic philosophy? I promise you if you visit a Reformed Baptist church you will feel comfortable and probably not notice much of a difference in practice.