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Are Freewill and Predestination Compatable?

th1bill

th1bill

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As I understand the concept, Yahweh created this Time/Space Continuum and that places Him outside our Timeline in order to create the Universe. In Isa 46:10 we learn that He knows the end from the beginning.

In Gal 5:13 we learn thar we, the Created Beings have self determination. Does Yahweh's Predetermination come in conflict with our Free Will? Actually, no!

Metaphores never work perfectly but consider a 4 hour saga on film and the public has never seen, even the clips yet. Even the actors are not certain
of the content because they were not present for the editing and composition.

The editor, creator of the product, knows the beginning from the end, and he directed, not a single frame of his work.

I can not explain the mechanism Yahweh used, some six thousand years ago to create us and all that we see... I might find time to ask Him when I go Home, I'll have time to listen then.

But the short of it all is, God knew that a young Atheist would find his friend blown to pieces in the middle of the night and having no one to curse he would curse the being he did not believe in and hearing that God speak to his spiritual heart and wet upon a 23 year search for the identity of God.

Did God force me to change and seekusand after Him, no. Did He know six thousand years or so ago that I would do so, yes. Can I explain this... nope but, by faith I accept it.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
The tricky part is always defining “Free Will”.

Free from what?
Free to do what?

Is your will 100% free from all external influences?
(Can you choose to have Bacon and Eggs for breakfast even if you didn’t buy any Bacon and you are allergic to eggs?)
(Can you choose to be an NFL quarterback and win the Super Bowl?)

As you have pointed out, God’s OMNISCIENCE does not negate human choice. My personal favorite example from the Bible is the life of Joseph. Jacob made some choices that created a family with a wife he loved and a wife he hated and two OTHER WOMEN that he had children with. This led to 12 brothers from 4 different mothers in a family built on competition and hatred. It comes as little surprise that the children whose mothers Jacob hated had no love for the sons of the woman that Jacob loved … especially Joseph, Jacob’s favorite. So God permitted MEN to exercise their WILL with limits set by God (God permitted them to sell Joseph into slavery, but restrained them from killing Joseph). God serendipitously provided slavers heading to Egypt (where God wanted Joseph to be when the brothers needed slavers to sell Joseph to). Over and over, we see the choice of people and the hand of God training Joseph to rule and reshaping the character of every member of the family. In the end, it is the FAMILY that God has healed. “What yo meant for evil, God meant for good” is Joseph’s conclusion. Human freedom choosing and all guided by the invisible hand of God for their good and His glory.

Ultimately, for our good too. Without Joseph in Egypt, there would be no “Passover Lamb” to teach us about Jesus as our Lamb of God. There would be no Passover Meal to provide Jesus with a “Last Supper” to educate us about His Body and Blood for us. No Exodus to teach and no “Wilderness” to wander in and no “Promised Land” to enter by faith. How much of what we understand was learned in Egypt and the journey out of bondage? All beginning with Joseph and a plan by God and a free choice by his brothers.
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
Free will does not mean there are no external influences. It means that the choice you make is something you decided and are accountable for and you cannot blame anyone else or claim to be a robot.

At a restaurant, I may be externally influenced seeing a pork chop delivered to a table across from mine, and order that for myself because it looks and smells so good. But I was not forced to order a pork chop.
 
A

Armchair Apologist

Active Member
Free will is always limited by our ability.

We cannot flap our arms and fly like a bird, breathe underwater (without SCUBA equipment), or jump 20,000 feet out of a perfectly good airplane without a parachute and expect to survive.

Not everyone has the ability to sing like Luciano Pavrotti so not everyone has the ability to make a living as an opera singer. I cannot pitch a baseball like Nolan Ryan, dunk a basketball like Michael Jordan, or throw a football like Joe Montana so pursuing a career in professional sports is likely not a possibility.

You also do not have the ability to NOT SIN!

Usually the argument is framed as "God's Sovereignty vs. Man's Free Will" so let me ask you: Is God's sovereignty limited by man's free will or is it the other way around? Would you agree with someone saying "God is sovereign over whom he saves?" Why or why not?
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
Armchair Apologist said:
Free will is always limited by our ability.

We cannot flap our arms and fly like a bird, breathe underwater (without SCUBA equipment), or jump 20,000 feet out of a perfectly good airplane without a parachute and expect to survive.

Not everyone has the ability to sing like Luciano Pavrotti so not everyone has the ability to make a living as an opera singer. I cannot pitch a baseball like Nolan Ryan, dunk a basketball like Michael Jordan, or throw a football like Joe Montana so pursuing a career in professional sports is likely not a possibility.

You also do not have the ability to NOT SIN!

Usually the argument is framed as "God's Sovereignty vs. Man's Free Will" so let me ask you: Is God's sovereignty limited by man's free will or is it the other way around? Would you agree with someone saying "God is sovereign over whom he saves?" Why or why not?
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Free will is not limited by our ability. Willing should be based on our ability, but it may not be. We can will to be richer than Elon Musk. We can make free will choices to amass wealth. The results of free will are constrained by our ability.

Sovereignty as a word has been mangled by Calvinists. The word is not found in the Bible.

Sovereign does not mean causative, making all things happen. Sovereign means ultimate rule giver or authority. A sovereign king answers to no one above him. A sovereign king is not the cause of everything that occurs in his kingdom. He just enforces the laws and decrees punishments and rewards.

God is sovereign over whom He saves and everyone and everything else, in that He is the final judge, but not the puppet master or robot controller.

God does not will evil or sin to happen. He does not issue commands, then cause them to be violated.

Jeremiah 19:5

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not nor spoke it, neither came it into My mind.
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Red herring … what about the Bible verses where God actually DOES say that he makes all things happen (without using the word “sovereign”)?
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God does not make pedophiles rape children.

Jeremiah 19:5

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not nor spoke it, neither came it into My mind.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Reader’s Digest discussion of the issue:

Free will is the capacity of individuals to make meaningful choices and exert control over their actions, independent of prior events, external coercion, or physical laws. It is the foundation of moral responsibility, serving as the basis for how we assign praise, blame, and legal accountability.
The concept is heavily debated across multiple disciplines. Key perspectives include:

1. The Philosophical Debate
  • Libertarianism: The view that free will and determinism are fundamentally incompatible. Libertarians believe that human choices are not completely caused by prior events or natural laws, meaning agents are the true originators of their actions.
  • Determinism: The opposing view that every event—including human actions—is the inevitable result of past events and the fundamental laws of nature. Under "hard determinism," true free will is considered an illusion.

So true FREE WILL must be free of all external influences.
Most Philosophers, Neurological/Social Scientist and Theologians consider true FREE WILL an impossibility. Human beings are influenced by internal and external factors making all Will at least partially “Deterministic”.
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Reader’s Digest discussion of the issue:

Free will is the capacity of individuals to make meaningful choices and exert control over their actions, independent of prior events, external coercion, or physical laws. It is the foundation of moral responsibility, serving as the basis for how we assign praise, blame, and legal accountability.
The concept is heavily debated across multiple disciplines. Key perspectives include:

1. The Philosophical Debate
  • Libertarianism: The view that free will and determinism are fundamentally incompatible. Libertarians believe that human choices are not completely caused by prior events or natural laws, meaning agents are the true originators of their actions.
  • Determinism: The opposing view that every event—including human actions—is the inevitable result of past events and the fundamental laws of nature. Under "hard determinism," true free will is considered an illusion.

So true FREE WILL must be free of all external influences.
Most Philosophers, Neurological/Social Scientist and Theologians consider true FREE WILL an impossibility. Human beings are influenced by internal and external factors making all Will at least partially “Deterministic”.
Click to expand...
Endless debates about free will are just mind games for quarrelsome people.

Everyone knows that they freely choose things.

No one is a robot, completely controlled by external or internal forces.

Free will means you made your own decision. You cannot blame society or parents or whatever. There are various influences, but the bottom line is you and no one else did what you did.

Each person is accountable for the choices they make. Otherwise, there could be no enforcement of laws. And no judgment seat verdict by God.

“I could not help myself, officer. I shot that guy because my past experiences forced me to!” — Will not get you off the hook with the cops.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Ascetic X said:
God does not make pedophiles rape children.
Click to expand...
Isa 46:10 [NKJV] Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times [things] that are not [yet] done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Does God declare the end from the beginning?
Does God’s counsel stand?
Does God do all His pleasure?
Is God sovereign like He said, or not?


Eph 1:11 [NKJV] In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Are we predestined according to God’s purpose?
Does God work ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL?
Is God sovereign like He said, or not?


Heb 6:17 [NKJV] Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed [it] by an oath,

Is the counsel of God IMMUTABLE (incapable of being changed) like God said?
Is God sovereign like He said, or not?


Rom 9:15, 18 [NKJV] For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." ... Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Does God have mercy on whomever HE WILLS?
Does God harden whomever HE WILLS?
Is God sovereign like He said, or not?
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Ascetic X said:
Endless debates about free will are just mind games for quarrelsome people.

Everyone knows that they freely choose things.

No one is a robot, completely controlled by external or internal forces.

Each person is accountable for the choices they make. Otherwise, there could be no enforcement of laws. And no judgment seat verdict by God.

“I could not help myself, officer. I shot that guy because my past experiences forced me to!” — Will not get you off the hook with the cops.
Click to expand...
Strawman … you are soundly defeating arguments that I am not making. :rolleyes:
 
Ben1445

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Armchair Apologist said:
Is God's sovereignty limited by man's free will or is it the other way around? Would you agree with someone saying "God is sovereign over whom he saves?" Why or why not?
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Man’s free will is accountable to a Sovereign God as a subject is to a sovereign king.
God is sovereign over all things.

A thank you to Webster for his definitions below.

SOVEREIGN, a. suv'eran.

1. Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.
2. Supreme; superior to all others; chief. God is the sovereign good of all who love and obey him.
3. Supremely efficacious; superior to all others; predominant; effectual; as a sovereign remedy.
4. Supreme; pertaining to the first magistrate of a nation; as sovereign authority.

SOVEREIGN, n. suv'eran.
1. A supreme lord or ruler; one who possesses the highest authority without control. Some earthly princes, kings and emperors are sovereigns in their dominions.


Interesting that Calvinist leaning Webster says that God is sovereign over those who love Him.
I think that God is the ultimate authority over all beings whether they love Him or not.

All these definitions point to the authority of God and don’t say anything that would indicate that God makes decisions for people.

I think the biggest issues is definitions. In my experience, a Calvinist uses the sovereignty of God to mean that God is deciding things for people in advance without what is commonly called a fair trial. (OH!! But for the grace of God there would be NONE!! How kind!!!
Right.?? God kindly created people without any ability to respond to Him so that He could judge them for doing what He intended for them to do?? How merciful God must be to funnel people into Hell.

But let me get back on track.
A judge is sovereign in his court. When he sentences the criminal, he is no more guilty of the crime than God is guilty of the actions of the sinner. No doubt I will be told that I am guilty of defaming God, but I am only accurately representing the picture of God that Calvinism paints. Unregenerate man who God has not given ability to respond to Christ can have no purpose except destruction. This destruction God has no pleasure in, so God must be forcing Himself against His pleasure to create men who He refuses to redeem. It is illogical. Can a fountain put out bitter water and sweet?

God cannot judge man for doing something that he was not free to do.

God declares the end from the beginning. He knows what will happen before hand. So God knows what choices people will make of their own free will and judges them accordingly. God does not choose whether or not to pre generate someone to salvation.

Is God sovereign or do we have free will?
Yes.
We make decisions of our own free will and God has the final say. Our free will must be accountable to the sovereign God. Our “free will” is not the arm of the sovereignty of God.
God will do His will with us or without us. The choice belongs to the individual.
 
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th1bill

th1bill

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This is a robust discussion with at least one trying to fight. I hope we can retain the civility Yahweh will bless here. It is Christian to discuss and learn from one another. I tend to disagree with atpollard and agree with Acetic X.

As I mention in the OP, I made the decision to stop chasing after 18 year old women, drinking 101 Wild Turkey and, entertaining in Honky Tonks... all with my decision to follow God. Was I influenced by Ruah bringing me to my knees? You can take that to the Bank but, God offered me salvation, He did not force it on me.
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
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Of Free Will — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith
th1bill said:
As I mention in the OP, I made the decision to stop chasing after 18 year old women, drinking 101 Wild Turkey and, entertaining in Honky Tonks... all with my decision to follow God. Was I influenced by Ruah bringing me to my knees? You can take that to the Bank but, God offered me salvation, He did not force it on me.
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Psalm 110:3; Jonah 2:9; Rev. 7:10. Take it from someone who was just as big a hooligan as you (except it was beer rather thn whiskey): God saved you. When you walk through the pearly gates, you will se a sign saying, "Whoever will may enter," but when you have entered and looked back, another sign will say, "Chosen IN Christ before the foundation of the world."
 
Ben1445

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
Of Free Will — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

Psalm 110:3; Jonah 2:9; Rev. 7:10. Take it from someone who was just as big a hooligan as you (except it was beer rather thn whiskey): God saved you. When you walk through the pearly gates, you will se a sign saying, "Whoever will may enter," but when you have entered and looked back, another sign will say, "Chosen IN Christ before the foundation of the world."
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Taken the way that is meant, it is false advertising. I disagree with the idea that God chose who will be found in Christ and do agree that all who are found in Christ may enter.
Come in Christ. He is the chosen way. There is no other. He is available to anyone.
 
th1bill

th1bill

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Ben1445 said:
Taken the way that is meant, it is false advertising. I disagree with the idea that God chose who will be found in Christ and do agree that all who are found in Christ may enter.
Come in Christ. He is the chosen way. There is no other. He is available to anyone.nk
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I think you took his post in the wrong light.. maybe?

Shalom
 
Ben1445

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
th1bill said:
I think you took his post in the wrong light.. maybe?

Shalom
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I wish it were so. I wish he would correct me if I’m mistaken.
My experience is that people change the meaning of the words from elect (because they are in Christ) to elected to be in Christ.

These are subtle word games that Calvinist play. John McArthur said he didn’t present Calvinism or reformed theology boldly. He sneaked it into his church little by little.
 
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