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Propitiation

David Lamb

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
The problem comes in when people read PSA into the verse.

If the Cross was God punishing our sins that were laid on Jesus then only and all of those people who's sins were laid on Jesus are saved.

If God laid the sins of the whole world, without exception, on Jesus and punished those sins then the result is universal salvation. God had to only lay the sins of the elect on Jesus, punish only those sins.

That is the "universal salvation" argument Calvinists make. The reason is they hold a very shallow view of sins (they can be remedied by punishing them on Christ) and a very low view of divine justice (justice can be satisfied by punishing a sinners sins laid on Christ).

Calvinism is the ultimate form of "easy believism", and this is why they cannot accept anything but a limited atonement. It is the original and most consistent form of PSA. It is logical. It matches human wisdom. It makes sence. And it is wrong.
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Those Christians I know who believe the doctrines of grace don't view sin lightly. They realise that sin is so serious that God sent His Son to take on human flesh, and to die in order to save sinners.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
David Lamb said:
Those Christians I know who believe the doctrines of grace don't view sin lightly. They realise that sin is so serious that God sent His Son to take on human flesh, and to die in order to save sinners.
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They think they do not view sin lightly, and compared to many religions they do not. But in comparison to traditional Christianity they view sin very lightly.

We all agree that God sent His Son to take on human flesh, to come "in the likeness of sinful flesh", to be "made sin for us", to "share [our] humanity", to "share our infirmity". And yes, this is because of sin.

BUT prior to the Reformation the idea that divine justice could be met by God punishing our sins on Christ was foreign to our faith. Sin was viewed as much greater an offense, much larger a problem.


Viewing the remedy for sin as God punishing those sins on Christ is viewing sin very lightly in comparison to traditional Christianity. Viewing punishment as satisfying the demands of divine justice is minimizing divine justice.

Sin is much greater a problem than Calvinism believes, and God is more holy a God than their doctrine will allow. There is no getting around that when you view Calvinism alongside a traditional form of the faith. Calvinism is simply "easy believism".
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
Sin is much greater a problem than Calvinism believes, and God is more holy a God than their doctrine will allow. There is no getting around that when you view Calvinism alongside a traditional form of the faith. Calvinism is simply "easy believism".
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Are we talking about the same Calvinists as the Puritans? The same ones who said to claim to be born again and to continue in any known sin is an impossibility. The ones who say that the only way men can on their own provide just recompense to God for the smallest sin, which an infinite offense against a Holy God, is to suffer endlessly? The ones who have been ridiculed for hundreds of years now for living such exact and attempted holy lives?

Regarding the verses in 1John, do you know what Owen wrote about the purpose and order of the gospel as meant in those verses?
"And as the whole effect of the doctrine of the gospel in holiness and obedience consists in the soul's being cast into the frame and mold of it, Romans 6:17; so the whole of the apostasy from the gospel is principally the casting of the into the mould of this false reasoning, that sin may be indulged unto upon the account of grace and pardon." In other words, he complains that people tend to view the propitiation available when they sin while forgetting that the first point was "that we sin not". (From John Owen's works book 19 Indwelling Sin in Believers, chapter 12 of 17 chapters of the main man who leads the sect that doesn't take sin seriously enough)

Of all the statements I have ever heard anyone make on here, the idea that the Calvinists don't take sin seriously is the most ill informed and ignorant yet.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
I see this back and forth and I certainly don't think that there is a fixed amount of "propitiation" somewhere such that anyone should ever worry that it wasn't meant for them or that there isn't enough to go around. Yet, those two verses being together, doesn't it seem that they should be kept in context? "My little children" is a specific group, obviously the believers who John was writing to, who are being instructed about what happens if they sin. They do have an "Advocate" and that Advocate intercedes for them. The exclusivity is that this is only speaking of those who have an "Advocate" with the Father. John seems to have no problem limiting the propitiation at first to those who have an Advocate rather than just saying "everyone". So I think the last part of verse 2 is simply saying that this includes all those who come later and read this in different times and places - that also have Christ as an Advocate. That's where the exclusivity lies. John was referring to the whole world of those who are also within the concept of "my little children", rather than everyone in general.

I part with most Calvinists in that in other uses of the "world" I do believe it means everyone. John 3:16 is limited in that it applied only to those who believe but the whole world was loved and "whosoever" means what it says. But the above verses are only for those who are in the group of those who have Christ as an Advocate and it is a stretch to exceed that. That does not mean that Christ is not offered to be the Advocate of anyone who would come to him though. We have that as a direct promise and it over rides our theological interpretations.
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The text does not support your view Dave. Yes John was speaking to believers and Christ is the propitiation for them but then John goes on to say Christ is not just their propitiation but also for the whole world. John did not say for the whole world that believe, that has to be read into the text.

The Scriptures plainly says that Jesus did die for all. {1Ti_2:6 ransom for all, Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly, Rom_5:8 Christ died for us}
And the bible even gives us the reason He died for all. That all could be saved which is the Fathers desire. {1Ti_2:3-4 wants everyone to be saved}

It is an error to try and limit for whom Christ is the propitiation.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
DaveXR650 said:
Are we talking about the same Calvinists as the Puritans?
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Not the same as the Puritians (broader context) but yes, certainly including the Puritians.

The Puritians believed that sins were remedied by punishment, so in that way they also viewed sins very superficially in terms of divine justice.

You provided the evidence in your post - they believed eternal punishment a recompense for sin. The idea that punishment satisfies divine justice itself is to treat sin lightly.

This probably led - or at least played into - to their legalistic approach to Christianity and their infamous persecution of other Christians.

While we can certainly learn from the Puritians (and other sects) they are not a group Christians would want to emulate.
 
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DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
The text does not support your view Dave. Yes John was speaking to believers and Christ is the propitiation for them but then John goes on to say Christ is not just their propitiation but also for the whole world. John did not say for the whole world that believe, that has to be read into the text.
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If what you mean is that Christ is the source of propitiation for anyone who comes to him, whether those spoken of as "my little children" by John or those who come to him from other places or times then I agree with you. I just feel that this whole way of discussing propitiation as if there is a nebulous cloud of existing propitiation which we then argue as to who can get it is meaningless. All who come to Christ will have Christ as their Advocate, and he is the propitiation for them and no one else. But I do believe that this includes all who come. The Calvinists taught this, and whether you have an explanation that logically ties those who choose to come with the work of the Spirit in drawing them, and the atonement being only for them - as long as the agreement regarding the fact that the offer to come is there and real for all, I don't see a problem unless you are a pastor in a denomination or a teacher at a school with a certain doctrinal stance. For the rest of us I see no problem.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
The Puritians believed that sins were remedied by punishment, so in that way they also viewed sins very superficially in terms of divine justice.
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They viewed sin as needing satisfaction such that God could be just according to his nature of holiness and justice and still lovingly overlook and then forgive the sins of those who come to him. This shows a high regard for God's honor as well as his love. (Remember, the whole plan was of the Father as well as the Son and Holy Spirit). I worry about you because you, I think know this and continually repeat this stuff out of extreme animosity for what appears to me to me the gospel.
 
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