I Will Build My Church

JD731 said:

No! The church of Jesus Christ is not revealed by the prophets of the OT, not because it's creation was not the eternal purpose of God but because it was hidden during those days by God. If it was hidden by God, that just simply means it was there in the OT unrevealed. Okay, if it was there how was it there? It was there in type because typifying things is one of the ways of God. He says the secret things belong unto God. Even after the Jews rejected his message of the kingdom and assigned him to death, he spoke of the "mysteries" of the kingdom of God and outlined it in 7 progressive metaphors, beginning to end, in a single chapter, Mt 13. One can find himself in there as either a tare or wheat. The one sure way to know if your doctrine of the church is truth or error is if there is an underlying metaphor in the OT for the doctrines it teaches.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


Speaking of the church as a mystery hidden from other ages and made known only now he says this.:

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

This was written in AD 60 after Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead in AD 30 and Paul, the one who revealed the mind of God, began his Christian pilgrimage in AD 37/38 and wrote his first letter in AD 49.

So, the answer to your question is there are no divine hiccups.

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JD, you are shifting the discussion away from the actual point. The question at hand is the timing of Christ’s building in Matthew 16:18, not whether the Church was typified, hidden, or unrevealed in the Old Testament. That is a different subject entirely.

Christ’s building is an act He Himself performs. Acts 4:11 identifies Christ as the cornerstone, not a future event. Luke 6:13 records Christ calling and constituting His disciples as an assembly. These passages address when Christ began building, not whether the Church appears in typology or prophetic metaphor.

Your discussion of mysteries, typology, Matthew 13, and Pauline chronology does not answer the question I asked kyredneck, nor does it address the New Testament text concerning the beginning of Christ’s assembly. The issue here is ecclesiology, not dispensational mystery language or Old Testament typology.

The topic is the timing of Christ’s building in Matthew 16:18. That is where the discussion needs to remain.

Anthony Pritchard said:

You are shifting the discussion again.

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K.

JD731 said:

No! The church of Jesus Christ is not revealed by the prophets of the OT,

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???

Anthony Pritchard said:

JD, you are shifting the discussion away from the actual point. The question at hand is the timing of Christ’s building in Matthew 16:18, not whether the Church was typified, hidden, or unrevealed in the Old Testament. That is a different subject entirely.

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This is the first point I responded to:

Acts 4:11 identifies Christ Himself as the cornerstone, not the resurrection event. The cornerstone is a person, not a moment. Colossians 1:18 says Christ is the beginning because He is preeminent, not because the church began at the resurrection.

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Here is Col 1:18 again;
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Here is a verse that helps it make sense:
RO 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If Jesus is first he is preeminent. If he is the firstborn, he is the first of the sons born. If he is the firstborn among many brethren then all his brethren are born after him.

If Jesus is indeed a man then he is the first glorified trinitarian man at his resurrection and he is the head of the body whose life is the Spirit.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Where is my logic wrong?

Anthony Pritchard said:

Christ’s building is an act He Himself performs. Acts 4:11 identifies Christ as the cornerstone, not a future event. Luke 6:13 records Christ calling and constituting His disciples as an assembly. These passages address when Christ began building, not whether the Church appears in typology or prophetic metaphor.

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I am going to take the liberty of quoting the context of Acts 4:11. It, the context, does more to show that Luke was referring to the the fact that Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecy of being slain and buried and risen. He was addressing people who should know the prophecy better than anyone, those who were the rulers.

Acts 4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this (healed the impotent man)?
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is (present tense) become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other (salvation requires the shedding of blood): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

In Luke 6 there is no emphasis on the assembly of disciples. This is near the end of the ministry of Jesus before he is rejected and crucified and the emphasis is on the office he is establishing for the purpose of extending and manifesting his power and authority over Israel and to whom will receive his very power. It is in the context of the gospel of the kingdom first and foremost and will be the connection to the church, it, the church, being founded upon the testimony of these apostles who were eye witness to his majesty in ministry and his death, burial, and resurrection and all things that he said. I can see the building. Jesus first, then the apostles, then the Spirit filled membership.

14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

Anthony Pritchard said:

Your discussion of mysteries, typology, Matthew 13, and Pauline chronology does not answer the question I asked kyredneck, nor does it address the New Testament text concerning the beginning of Christ’s assembly. The issue here is ecclesiology, not dispensational mystery language or Old Testament typology.

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You seem to believe the church of Jesus Christ is identified as an assembly when it is identified as his body, house, family of blood washed, born again children of God.

Anthony Pritchard said:

The topic is the timing of Christ’s building in Matthew 16:18. That is where the discussion needs to remain.

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The prophecy in MT 16 concerning Christ's church is future tense and he is the Rock.

kyredneck said:

K.



???

24​	Yea and all the prophets from Samuel and them that followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days. Acts 3

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ky, thanks for your input. I always enjoy your comments. Samuel said quite a few things that are recorded in the scriptures.

I said this:

JD731 said:
No! The church of Jesus Christ is not revealed by the prophets of the OT,

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Would you take a moment and cut and paste where Samuel spoke about the church of Jesus Christ.

How could the church be a mystery of Christ if all the OT prophets were talking about it? Maybe the context of your quote was not the church revelation.

JD731 said:

This is the first point I responded to:

Here is Col 1:18 again;
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Here is a verse that helps it make sense:
RO 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
If Jesus is first he is preeminent. If he is the firstborn, he is the first of the sons born. If he is the firstborn among many brethren then all his brethren are born after him.

If Jesus is indeed a man then he is the first glorified trinitarian man at his resurrection and he is the head of the body whose life is the Spirit.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Where is my logic wrong?


I am going to take the liberty of quoting the context of Acts 4:11. It, the context, does more to show that Luke was referring to the the fact that Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecy of being slain and buried and risen. He was addressing people who should know the prophecy better than anyone, those who were the rulers.

Acts 4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
6 And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this (healed the impotent man)?
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is (present tense) become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other (salvation requires the shedding of blood): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

In Luke 6 there is no emphasis on the assembly of disciples. This is near the end of the ministry of Jesus before he is rejected and crucified and the emphasis is on the office he is establishing for the purpose of extending and manifesting his power and authority over Israel and to whom will receive his very power. It is in the context of the gospel of the kingdom first and foremost and will be the connection to the church, it, the church, being founded upon the testimony of these apostles who were eye witness to his majesty in ministry and his death, burial, and resurrection and all things that he said. I can see the building. Jesus first, then the apostles, then the Spirit filled membership.

14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.



You are wanting us to believe the church of Jesus Christ is identified as an assembly when it is identified as his body, house, family of blood washed, born again children of God.

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You still have not addressed the actual question at hand. Colossians 1:18 and Romans 8:29 speak to Christ’s preeminence and the order of salvation, not to the institutional beginning of His assembly. Acts 4:11 identifies Christ Himself as the cornerstone, not the resurrection event. Luke 6 records Christ calling and constituting a distinct body of disciples. Matthew 16:18 concerns Christ’s act of building that assembly. The issue is when Christ began building, not which metaphors (body, house, family) are later applied to that assembly.

Anthony Pritchard said:

Brother, thank you for the lexical expansion, I agree that οἰκοδομήσω carries the sense of establishing and edifying. My point was simply that Christ began that building work during His earthly ministry, beginning with the calling and constituting of the Twelve in Luke 6:13.

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Absolutely.

Baptist writers and Preachers use this verse alongside passages like Luke 6:13 to show that “out of that group of John's Disciples, He picked 12 whom He named Apostles and set first in the church.”, as noted by The Church Ordinances.* [1], also; https://baptisthistoryhomepage.com/kazee.ch.and.ord.tbocont.html

Anthony Pritchard said:

Regarding the apostles being “set” in the church, the passage you cited is 1 Corinthians 12:28, which describes roles within an already‑existing assembly rather than the founding moment.

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Yes, the Lord's church at Corinth was already existing and some time after The Lord Founded His Kind of "Church” (Greek ekklēsia) and yet we have always seen and taught 1 Corinthians 12:28 which is frequently referenced in Historical Baptist and Baptist Theological Essays, as well as from our Pulpits of course, to argue that Christ Established and Organized a Visible, Functioning Local church during His Earthly Ministry—consisting of the Apostles He chose, first, —prior to the Day of Pentecost. [1, 2; you'll love these references].

Anthony Pritchard said:

My focus is on the initial act of formation, when Christ organized and named the Twelve as His apostles.

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You're exactly right.

Anthony Pritchard said:

That is the beginning of the assembly He promised to build.

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That's exactly right again.

WE'RE IN AGREEMENT ON THIS, FOR SURE.

Br. Pritchard is very ably handling any and all objections here on his own tread. I am only reiterating and emphasizing the Truth and importance of understanding exactly what he is calling to our attention. Our points may be expressed a little differently here and there, but we are both aimming at the same thing, which our Brethren and those I've quoted below refer to as, "Church Truth", i.e., the HUGE BODY of CHURCH DOCTRINE that is concerned only with what Jesus Built, which is His version of a 'local, assembly, called to congregate in a Biblical fashion, Organizationally, Doctrinally, and Practically.

That is the only "church" Jesus and the other New Testament writers ever spoke about.

Ascetic X said:

When Jesus said He was going to build His church, He referred to the universal collective entity, not to any specific location. If local assemblies were meant, Jesus would have said churches plural.

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From "In Search of the Universal Invisible Church" by Elder Milburn Cockrell:

"A limited reading of the New Testament will prove that a church made disciples (Matt. 28:19),
baptized these disciples in water (Matt. 28:19),
and taught them what Christ commanded (Matt. 28:20).
A true New Testament church received members (Rom. 14:1),
elected officers (Acts 1:23; 6:5),
sent out missionaries (Acts 13:1-4),
observed the Lord's Supper (I Cor. 11),
had regular and stated meetings (Acts 20:7; I Cor. 16:1-2),
settled disputes (Acts 15:1-41),
excluded the disorderly (I Cor. 5:9-13; II Thess. 3:14),
restored the penitent (II Cor. 2:1-10),
and condemned false doctrine (Rom. 16:17-18).

"None of these things could have been done by a universal, invisible church."

"ITS PLURAL USAGE"
"The word Ekklesia in the plural form occurs 36 times in the Greek New Testament (Acts 9:31; 15:41; 16:5; Rom. 16:4, 16; I Cor. 7:17; 11:16; 14:33-34; 16:1,19; II Cor. 8:1, 18, 19, 23-24; 11:8, 28; 12:13; Gal. 1:2, 22; I Thess. 2:14; II Thess. 1:4; Rev. 1:4, 11, 20; 2:7, 11, 17, 23, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 22:16). So far as I know no one has yet invented the doctrine of the universal, invisible churches. Therefore, the plural tolerates nothing but the local idea. It leaves no place for either the universal, invisible church of the Protestants, or the universal visible church of the Catholics. These 36 plural usage's confirm the literal and primary sense of the word is correct. This leaves 75 other passages."

"THE CHURCH IN A CERTAIN PLACE"
"Twenty times the word church is used in the singular number,
and it points to a church which meets in a certain place.
These passages are as follows:
"The church which was at Jerusalem" (Acts 8:1).
"The church which was in Jerusalem" (Acts 11:22).
"The church that was in Antioch" (Acts 13:1).
"The church at Cenchrea" (Rom. 16:1).
"The church that is in their house" (Rom. 16:5).
"The church of God which is at Corinth" (I Cor. 1:2).
"The church which is in his house" (Col. 4:15).
"The church of the Laodiceans" (Col. 4:16).
"The church of the Thessalonians" (I Thess. 1:1).
"The church of the Thessalonians" (II Thess. 1:1).
"The church in thy house" (Phile. 2).
"The church of Ephesus" (Rev. 2:1).
"The church in Smyrna" (Rev. 2:8).
"The church at Pergamos" (Rev. 2:12).
"The church in Thyatira" (Rev. 2:18).
"The church in Sardis" (Rev. 3:1).
"The church in Philadelphia" (Rev. 3:7).
"The church of the Laodiceans" (Rev.3:14).

"These verses most certainly refer to a local church, an assembly of people who meet in a given locality, a body of baptized believers. There is no such thing as a universal, invisible church which meets in a certain place. A church which gathers in a certain place is both local and visible. This leaves 55 more verses to consider."

Those 55 verses are dealt with in this article I am referencing:

"In Search of the Universal Invisible Church"
Elder Milburn Cockrell
The late Pastor - Berea Baptist Church
Mantachie, Mississippi

Chapter I
THE MEANING OF 'EKKLESIA

The above with:
“Church” (Greek ekklēsia) LOCATION IN THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT.
"In 23 other passages the word church is located in a certain place in the immediate context."

“Church” (Greek ekklēsia) IN CONNECTION WITH COMING TOGETHER.
"We are now going on to consider the remaining 32 passages. Three times the word church is connected with a coming together. This precluded a universal, invisible church in the strongest possible manner. They also demonstrate what a church really is in the New Testament sense. These verses can mean nothing but a local, visible body of baptized believers."

“Church” (Greek ekklēsia) THE WHOLE CHURCH.
"We now have 29 passages left. Thus far we have not found even one thing which in the least resembles the universal, invisible church. To the universal church people the whole church consists of "the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one." But in the New Testament "the whole church" is always used to refer to a local church.

"Then why do they use the expression "the whole church" to mean all the elect?

"Where is their Scriptural authority for doing so?"

“Church” (Greek ekklēsia) COUPLED WITH OTHER WORDS.
"We are now down to 26 passages yet to be studied. Two times the word church is accompanied by the word "every."
"And when they had ordained them elders in every church" (Acts 14:23).
"I teach in every church" (I Cor. 4:17).
One time church is coupled with "no."
"No church communicated with me" (Phil. 4:15).
"These verses point also to a local visible body of baptized believers."

“Church” (Greek ekklēsia) FIVE OTHER SURELY LOCAL.
"Thus 97 out of the 115 permits the meaning of a local, visible body of persons."

This leaves 18 more;

Con't.

See: "In Search of the Universal Invisible Church", Chapter II, THE MEANING OF 'EKKLESIA (Continued);

"I went to great length to examine the usage of ekklesia in the Greek New Testament. Ekklesia is the Greek word translated church in our English Bible. My examination revealed that in 97 of the 115 passages the word has the primary and literal meaning of a local, visible assembly.

"In none of these 97 verses did the word church mean a universal, invisible church consisting of all the elect."

"THE GENERIC USE OF A WORD “Church” (Greek ekklēsia)."
"I believe that in a number of the remaining 18 verses the word church is used in the generic sense. In such a case the word may be singular and yet not refer to any particular object of the class but to every object of that class. Let me illustrate what I mean by a word being used abstractly, or generically. "The home is a Divine institution." The word home is used generically or abstractly in this sentence" Note: not that the "church" itself is something "abstract", but that THE WORD "church" is used just generically like where: "The definite article with the word "home" does not mean there is one particular home singled out from the rest. The word home has not taken on a new meaning; it retains its common meaning. There is no such thing as a universal, invisible home."

Then, Br. Cockrell goes about his treatment of the remaining 18 verses, with Matthew 16:18 being the first, below;

Anthony Pritchard said:

Singular nouns regularly describe institutions without implying universality. The Road. The Car. The Store. The Bank. The Church. Singular usage does not create a universal entity.

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Exactly. Anyone can Google that to be a sound fact of our English language.

Anthony Pritchard said:

A universal, unassembled church is a contradiction in terms.

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That we have to admit, along with the Biblical fact that there is "One body", as in one kind of local body that is Scriptural, just as there is "One baptism", as in one kind of baptism that is Scriptural.

Anthony Pritchard said:

The New Testament definition of a church is an assembly.

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From "In Search of the Universal Invisible Church" by Elder Milburn Cockrell: "The word "church" found in our KJV is a translation of the Greek word ekklesia. In the Greek New Testament it occurs 115 times. In our KJV church is found 114 times.
"However, two of these times should be excluded from our study. In Acts 19:37 the Greek word is hierosulosnot ekklesia. This is the Greek word for temple. Then in I Peter 5:13 ekklesiadoes not occur in the Greek text. The word church is supplied by the translators. 'Ekklesia is translated three times "assembly" in Acts 19. Hence we need to subtract two passages in the KJV (Acts 19:37 and I Peter 5:13) which makes 112. Then we need to add 3 (Acts 19:32, 39, 41). Thus giving us 115 times ekklesia occurs in the Greek New Testament.

"THE NON CHRISTIAN USAGE"
"In order to discover the primary and literal meaning of the Greek word ekklesia, let us look carefully at its non- Christian usage in Acts 19. "For the assembly (ekklesia) was confused" (Acts 19:32).

"Acts 19:39 says: "It shall be determined in a lawful assembly" (ekklesia).

Acts 19:41 declares: "He dismissed the assembly" (ekklesia). Hence we see the competent scholars of the King James Version believed that the literal meaning of ekklesia was "assembly." They did not translate it "the called out."

"Wickcliff (1380) translates these three passages "church." Tyndale (1534), Cranmer (1539), the Geneva Bible (1557), and the Rhemish Version (1582) all translate the word in Acts 19 "congregation."

"The New International Version, the New English Bible, The New Testament by Charles Williams, the Twentieth Century New Testament, the Centenary Translation, the Judaean New Testament, the Weymouth Version, Moffatt's version, and the Emphasized Bible all translate all three verses in Acts 19 as "assembly."

"The Amplified New Testament translates verse 39 and 41 "assembly," but in verse 32 it is "gathering."

"The New Berkeley Version translates verse 32 and 39 "assembly," but in verse 41 it is "gathering."

"The New Testament in Basic English has "meeting" and so does the Good News for Modern Man (a version which is so bad it ought to be called bad news for any man).

"None of these translate ekklesia "the called out." If as our opponents claim the word means "the called out," why did not any of these scholars so translate? Yet they say all scholars agree with them! The word ekklesia does not mean "the called out." It means "assembly," "congregation," "gathering," or "meeting." This literal and primary meaning precludes the so-called universal, invisible church. There is no such thing as an assembly which cannot assemble, or a congregation which never congregates. The meaning of the word prohibits such a meaning.

"The universal, invisible church has never assembled and never will on this earth in this gospel age. Hence such a thing is a mere concept of the mind, having no real existence in time or place.

"One time in the New Testament the word church ekklesia is applied to the congregation or assembly of Israel in the wilderness: "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us" (Acts 7:38). The congregation in the wilderness was not a church in the New Testament sense. But it was a local, visible body of people in one place. There was no universal, invisible congregation of the Israelites. This cannot mean "the whole number of regenerate persons from Pentecost to the first resurrection," nor can it mean "the whole number of the elect, the have been, are, or shall be gathered into one." Ekklesia (church) retains its primary and literal sense of assembly or congregation."

con't

Anthony Pritchard said:

1. Institutional usage “I will build my church” Matthew 16:18. Christ is speaking of the institution He is forming, not a universal, unassembled body. Singular nouns often describe institutions.

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"MATTHEW 16:18"

"I shall take these verses in the order in which they occur in the books of the New Testament. The first one to be considered is Matthew 16:18. In this verse Jesus said: "And I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I Will Build My church; and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus is using the word church here in the generic, abstract, or Institutional sense. He refers to the church as a Divine institution against which the gates of Hell shall not prevail. Yet it would have been understood by His hearers in a special sense as applicable to them.

"Jesus spoke here to His Disciples (Matt. 16:13), the company of baptized believers which followed Him from the baptism of John (Acts 1:21-22). It was to the same group of baptized Disciples He gave the rules of church Discipline, the Lord's Supper, and the Great Commission. There can be no doubt that Jesus Addressed His Words to a local, visible body of baptized believers who constitute the first New Testament church in the world.

"The ordinary sense makes perfectly good sense in Matthew 16:18.
"First, the words were addressed to a local, visible body of baptized believers.
"They were not addressed to the elect of all ages.

"Second, those who heard these words would have understood ekklesia in its primary and ordinary sense. I say this because I cannot believe the Master Teacher would have intended a common word to have a new meaning without some word of explanation.

"Third, by reading the Gospels and the Book of Acts, we see the kind of church which Christ Built. He Personally Built the church which later became known as the Jerusalem Church. Through this mother church He Built other churches, all such churches were local, visible bodies like the first church.

"The Fourth reason I believe 'ekklesia must be understood in its primary sense is because Jesus used this word 23 times, 3 times in Matthew and 20 times in Revelation. Twenty-one of these times the word is admitted by most as having the common meaning. Then why give it a new meaning in Matthew 16:18? Remember, the odds are 22 to 1 that Christ used it in its primary meaning.

"It seems to me to be the height of folly to assume OUT OF NOTHING BUT THIN AIR (and supernaturally evil influence) that our Lord announced He would build a universal, invisible church(?), when He never said He ever Promised to Build anything like that and then He never mentioned that "universal, invisible church"(?) again while speaking 22 other times about the kinds of local assemblies HE DID SAY HE WOUND BUILD...AND MOST CERTAINLY DID, BECAUSE THEY ARE STILL HERE TODAY AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN SINCE HE PROMISED THEY WOULD."

The fact remains that the church exists simultaneously as one universal body of Christ and also as individual local assemblies.

There are local manifestations (churches) of this universal collection (church) of believers who are assembled and seated in the heavenlies.


Ephesians 3

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.



Ekklesia (or ecclesia) is an ancient Greek word that comes from two roots: ek (meaning "out of") and kaleo (meaning "to call"), which is why it is often literally translated as "the called-out ones".

So the church is people who are called out. Called out of darkness into light.

There are not many bodies of Christ. All the local church assemblies collectively exist as the one body of Christ. This universal church is already gathered together as one body in the heavenlies.

@Alan Dale Gross misunderstands that the one body of Christ is the totality of all believers when he erroneously states: “That we have to admit, along with the Biblical fact that there is "One body", as in one kind of local body that is Scriptural…”

Here in Colossians, for example, church cannot refer to any specific local assembly, it refers to the totality of all believers.


Colossians 1:18

And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.



When Jesus said He was going to build His church, He referred to the universal collective entity, not to any specific location. If local assemblies were meant, Jesus would have said “I will build my churches” plural.

Alan Dale Gross said:

"THE CHURCH IN A CERTAIN PLACE"
"Twenty times the word church is used in the singular number,
and it points to a church which meets in a certain place.
These passages are as follows:
"The church which was at Jerusalem" (Acts 8:1).
"The church which was in Jerusalem" (Acts 11:22).
"The church that was in Antioch" (Acts 13:1).
"The church at Cenchrea" (Rom. 16:1).
"The church that is in their house" (Rom. 16:5).
"The church of God which is at Corinth" (I Cor. 1:2).
"The church which is in his house" (Col. 4:15).
"The church of the Laodiceans" (Col. 4:16).
"The church of the Thessalonians" (I Thess. 1:1).
"The church of the Thessalonians" (II Thess. 1:1).
"The church in thy house" (Phile. 2).
"The church of Ephesus" (Rev. 2:1).
"The church in Smyrna" (Rev. 2:8).
"The church at Pergamos" (Rev. 2:12).
"The church in Thyatira" (Rev. 2:18).
"The church in Sardis" (Rev. 3:1).
"The church in Philadelphia" (Rev. 3:7).
"The church of the Laodiceans" (Rev.3:14).

"These verses most certainly refer to a local church, an assembly of people who meet in a given locality, a body of baptized believers. There is no such thing as a universal, invisible church which meets in a certain place. A church which gathers in a certain place is both local and visible. This leaves 55 more verses to consider."

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You do understand, iI hope, that the church of Jesus Christ is a body in the image of Jesus Christ who is in the image of God, a trinity. He is not in the image of God because of location but by nature. The church is one body in the imagery of a physical body (1 Cor 12) where there are many members but all the members making one complete man. That is actually what Paul tells us in his letter to the Ephesians. Read what he says about the one body:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

In the spirit of this trinitarian imagery Paul uses it 3 times in this letter;

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (Jew and Gentile) one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is the common denominator for the members of this one body all over the earth that holds the body together with the same mind? It is the Spirit of Christ and Christ is doing something now that he could not do in Luke 6:13. He can be present to the same degree in every member everywhere because he is omnipresent. He is not restricted to one place at one time like Jesus was in his incarnation.

Because the church of Jesus Christ is taught by revelation, and the natural man cannot receive these truths, one MUST have the Spirit dwelling in him to teach him these great truths of which he is a part. The Spirit indwells every believer and is the resident teacher.

Consider the two scripture witnesses to this truth;

1 Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Ep 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But the body is not omnipresent and occupies one place at one time all over the world, til the gathering, what is generally called the rapture.

My advice is always; believe the words and honor the context.

JD731 said:

You do understand, iI hope, that the church of Jesus Christ is a body in the image of Jesus Christ who is in the image of God, a trinity. He is not in the image of God because of location but by nature. The church is one body in the imagery of a physical body (1 Cor 12) where there are many members but all the members making one complete man. That is actually what Paul tells us in his letter to the Ephesians. Read what he says about the one body:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

In the spirit of this trinitarian imagery Paul uses it 3 times in this letter;

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (Jew and Gentile) one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is the common denominator for the members of this one body all over the earth that holds the body together with the same mind? It is the Spirit of Christ and Christ is doing something now that he could not do in Luke 6:13. He can be present to the same degree in every member everywhere because he is omnipresent. He is not restricted to one place at one time like Jesus was in his incarnation.

Because the church of Jesus Christ is taught by revelation, and the natural man cannot receive these truths, one MUST have the Spirit dwelling in him to teach him these great truths of which he is a part. The Spirit indwells every believer and is the resident teacher.

Consider the two scripture witnesses to this truth;

1 Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Ep 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But the body is not omnipresent and occupies one place at one time all over the world, til the gathering, what is generally called the rapture.

My advice is always; believe the words and honor the context.

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Brother, you are conflating two biblical categories that Scripture never merges:

(1) Christ’s universal headship, and
(2) the church’s local assembly.

Christ is indeed the head of every man (1 Cor 11:3). One Christ, many men. His singular headship does not turn humanity into a single universal man.

By the same token:

Christ is the head of every church. One Christ, many churches. His singular headship does not turn all churches into one universal church.

To say Christ cannot be the head of every local church is to limit His power. But to say His headship creates a universal, unassembled church is to go beyond Scripture.

You are confusing metaphorical unity with assembled unity, and Christ’s universal headship with a universal ecclesiastical organism. Scripture never makes that move.

Alan Dale Gross said:

See: "In Search of the Universal Invisible Church", Chapter II, THE MEANING OF 'EKKLESIA (Continued);

"I went to great length to examine the usage of ekklesia in the Greek New Testament. Ekklesia is the Greek word translated church in our English Bible. My examination revealed that in 97 of the 115 passages the word has the primary and literal meaning of a local, visible assembly.

"In none of these 97 verses did the word church mean a universal, invisible church consisting of all the elect."

"THE GENERIC USE OF A WORD “Church” (Greek ekklēsia)."
"I believe that in a number of the remaining 18 verses the word church is used in the generic sense. In such a case the word may be singular and yet not refer to any particular object of the class but to every object of that class. Let me illustrate what I mean by a word being used abstractly, or generically. "The home is a Divine institution." The word home is used generically or abstractly in this sentence" Note: not that the "church" itself is something "abstract", but that THE WORD "church" is used just generically like where: "The definite article with the word "home" does not mean there is one particular home singled out from the rest. The word home has not taken on a new meaning; it retains its common meaning. There is no such thing as a universal, invisible home."

Then, Br. Cockrell goes about his treatment of the remaining 18 verses, with Matthew 16:18 being the first, below;


Exactly. Anyone can Google that to be a sound fact of our English language.

That we have to admit, along with the Biblical fact that there is "One body", as in one kind of local body that is Scriptural, just as there is "One baptism", as in one kind of baptism that is Scriptural.

From "In Search of the Universal Invisible Church" by Elder Milburn Cockrell: "The word "church" found in our KJV is a translation of the Greek word ekklesia. In the Greek New Testament it occurs 115 times. In our KJV church is found 114 times.
"However, two of these times should be excluded from our study. In Acts 19:37 the Greek word is hierosulosnot ekklesia. This is the Greek word for temple. Then in I Peter 5:13 ekklesiadoes not occur in the Greek text. The word church is supplied by the translators. 'Ekklesia is translated three times "assembly" in Acts 19. Hence we need to subtract two passages in the KJV (Acts 19:37 and I Peter 5:13) which makes 112. Then we need to add 3 (Acts 19:32, 39, 41). Thus giving us 115 times ekklesia occurs in the Greek New Testament.

"THE NON CHRISTIAN USAGE"
"In order to discover the primary and literal meaning of the Greek word ekklesia, let us look carefully at its non- Christian usage in Acts 19. "For the assembly (ekklesia) was confused" (Acts 19:32).

"Acts 19:39 says: "It shall be determined in a lawful assembly" (ekklesia).

Acts 19:41 declares: "He dismissed the assembly" (ekklesia). Hence we see the competent scholars of the King James Version believed that the literal meaning of ekklesia was "assembly." They did not translate it "the called out."

"Wickcliff (1380) translates these three passages "church." Tyndale (1534), Cranmer (1539), the Geneva Bible (1557), and the Rhemish Version (1582) all translate the word in Acts 19 "congregation."

"The New International Version, the New English Bible, The New Testament by Charles Williams, the Twentieth Century New Testament, the Centenary Translation, the Judaean New Testament, the Weymouth Version, Moffatt's version, and the Emphasized Bible all translate all three verses in Acts 19 as "assembly."

"The Amplified New Testament translates verse 39 and 41 "assembly," but in verse 32 it is "gathering."

"The New Berkeley Version translates verse 32 and 39 "assembly," but in verse 41 it is "gathering."

"The New Testament in Basic English has "meeting" and so does the Good News for Modern Man (a version which is so bad it ought to be called bad news for any man).

"None of these translate ekklesia "the called out." If as our opponents claim the word means "the called out," why did not any of these scholars so translate? Yet they say all scholars agree with them! The word ekklesia does not mean "the called out." It means "assembly," "congregation," "gathering," or "meeting." This literal and primary meaning precludes the so-called universal, invisible church. There is no such thing as an assembly which cannot assemble, or a congregation which never congregates. The meaning of the word prohibits such a meaning.

"The universal, invisible church has never assembled and never will on this earth in this gospel age. Hence such a thing is a mere concept of the mind, having no real existence in time or place.

"One time in the New Testament the word church ekklesia is applied to the congregation or assembly of Israel in the wilderness: "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us" (Acts 7:38). The congregation in the wilderness was not a church in the New Testament sense. But it was a local, visible body of people in one place. There was no universal, invisible congregation of the Israelites. This cannot mean "the whole number of regenerate persons from Pentecost to the first resurrection," nor can it mean "the whole number of the elect, the have been, are, or shall be gathered into one." Ekklesia (church) retains its primary and literal sense of assembly or congregation."

con't

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This book is excellent. Cockrell’s argument is irrefutable because it is identical to Scripture’s argument. To refute him, one must refute the text itself.” I recommend it heartily. In Search of the Universal Invisible Church

Anthony Pritchard said:

Brother, you are conflating two biblical categories that Scripture never merges:

(1) Christ’s universal headship, and
(2) the church’s local assembly.

Christ is indeed the head of every man (1 Cor 11:3). One Christ, many men. His singular headship does not turn humanity into a single universal man.

By the same token:

Christ is the head of every church. One Christ, many churches. His singular headship does not turn all churches into one universal church.

To say Christ cannot be the head of every local church is to limit His power. But to say His headship creates a universal, unassembled church is to go beyond Scripture.

You are confusing metaphorical unity with assembled unity, and Christ’s universal headship with a universal ecclesiastical organism. Scripture never makes that move.

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Anthony, this makes twice that you have suggested I am guilty of conflating two categories of scriptures when I am being consistent with what we are told about the church. It is quite possible if not probable that we define the church differently. You see it as an organization and I see it as an organism. It is defined as a man, a new man, a perfect man. It has it's beginning with a birth, a second birth, a new birth. This birth makes us a son of God, a functioning member in his family, and an heir and joint heir with Christ his firstborn son from the dead, the same place we all who are now saved came from. The church is the third part of NT society, Israel, the nations, and the church. (1 Cor 10:32). As Israel was the son of God collectively by physical circumcision Ex 4:22-23, the earthly people of God, and the chief nation on the earth so is the church the collective son of God, placed into the one body by spiritual baptism, and ruling and reigning with Christ over all his creation. So, in the regeneration the trinitarian image of God is renewed and visible in his creation, Israel with 12 tribes on the earth over the nations, representing the physical, the body. The church, the heavenly people of God, representing the soul, the spiritual part of man and occupying New Jerusalem the orbiting satellite city where the throne of God is, with the Spirit indwelling the church as a temple. and the Father and the son reigning in perfect harmony over all his creation forever.

I believe God is a trinity and that all his creation reflects it.

There can be and was a church before the New Testament in the blood of Christ but it was not the church of Jesus Christ in any imaginable way.

Acts 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago (in Acts 10) God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this (after taking out from the gentiles a people for his name) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.