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Systematic Theology - What's your Choice?

Mikey

Mikey

Active Member
Van said:
You answer questions with inane questions, but provide no verses to support your undefined "truly man." Can you cite even one verse that says Jesus was "truly man" other than verses that support 100% man? Answer NOPE!!

Folks, obfuscation on display.

I asked this question in Post #11:


Why do you suppose none of the recommended Systematic Theologies provided a clear answer?
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Classic Van response still refusing to answer the initial question. Instead lashes out accuses the poster of doing what what he is doing.

What do you mean that "none of the recommended systematic theologies provided a clear answer?"? - how are the systematic theologies not clear on this matter?

"But, though the body of Christ is the temple of God, it is such as the result of a union not less strict than one which makes the indwelling person actually and truly a man. While the relation to the divine nature remains unchanged, and Christ is still truly God, the relation to the human nature is so assumed that Christ also becomes truly man. He is born of a woman. He comes in the flesh. He assumes a human nature which becomes, as truly and really, though not as eternally and essentially his, as his divine nature." - Abstract of Systematic Theology Rev. James Petigru Boyce
Boyce's Abstract of Systematic Theology—Chapter 26 - Founders Ministries
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Athanasian Creed [From Wikepedia]


This is pretty well said except for the bolded phrases. "Begotten before time" should read "eternally existent" and "with a rational soul" should read "with a uniquely divine Soul/Spirit."
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You do not believe God’s only begotten Son was begotten ( monogenēs)?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As affirmed in the Nicene Creed, Jesus is "eternally begotten of the Father". This means His begotten relationship to the Father has no starting point in time.

Your “uniquely divine Soul/Spirit” brings no clarity. Did Jesus not have a human soul?
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mikey said:
Classic Van response still refusing to answer the initial question. Instead lashes out accuses the poster of doing what what he is doing.

What do you mean that "none of the recommended systematic theologies provided a clear answer?"? - how are the systematic theologies not clear on this matter?

"But, though the body of Christ is the temple of God, it is such as the result of a union not less strict than one which makes the indwelling person actually and truly a man. While the relation to the divine nature remains unchanged, and Christ is still truly God, the relation to the human nature is so assumed that Christ also becomes truly man. He is born of a woman. He comes in the flesh. He assumes a human nature which becomes, as truly and really, though not as eternally and essentially his, as his divine nature." - Abstract of Systematic Theology Rev. James Petigru Boyce
Boyce's Abstract of Systematic Theology—Chapter 26 - Founders Ministries
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LOL, still answering the question with a question. Still no answer to the question: "Is is orthodoxy to say Jesus was 100% a physical man, and 100% a Divine Spirit?

Still no definition of "truly man"that differs from "fully man" or "100% man."
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ascetic X said:
You do not believe God’s only begotten Son was begotten ( monogenēs)?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As affirmed in the Nicene Creed, Jesus is "eternally begotten of the Father". This means His begotten relationship to the Father has no starting point in time.

Your “uniquely divine Soul/Spirit” brings no clarity. Did Jesus not have a human soul?
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1) Right, monogenes means unique, not fathered. Monogenes was mistranslated as "fathered" (begotten") by error.

2) Read how John 3:16 is translated by the NASB, or ESV, or NET or CSB or LEB.

3) The Nicene Creed is in error.

4) No, Jesus did NOT have a human soul/spirit. He had one Spirit, Logos, God the Son.

5) What was unique is that Jesus was God incarnate.
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
Van said:
1) Right, monogenes means unique, not fathered. Monogenes was mistranslated as "fathered" (begotten") by error.

2) Read how John 3:16 is translated by the NASB, or ESV, or NET or CSB or LEB.

3) The Nicene Creed is in error.

4) No, Jesus did NOT have a human soul/spirit. He had one Spirit, Logos, God the Son.

5) What was unique is that Jesus was God incarnate.
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Jesus had a human soul and was still God in the flesh.

To possess a true human nature, He required a complete human composite, consisting of a human body, a human mind, human emotions, and a rational human soul.

His human soul and human body were united to His divine person, allowing Him to live, feel, and act as a true human being.

The Gospels show Jesus experiencing deep human emotions, grief, and distress. For example, in Matthew 26:38, Jesus states in the Garden of Gethsemane, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death".

Jesus is the Son of God because He was birthed or begotten by the Father, who could not be a father if He did not beget. To beget means to produce something of the same kind (a human begets a human, God begets God), meaning Jesus is fully divine and eternal, with no beginning or end.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ascetic X said:
Jesus had a human soul and was still God in the flesh.

To possess a true human nature, He required a complete human composite, consisting of a human body, a human mind, human emotions, and a rational human soul.

His human soul and human body were united to His divine person, allowing Him to live, feel, and act as a true human being.

The Gospels show Jesus experiencing deep human emotions, grief, and distress. For example, in Matthew 26:38, Jesus states in the Garden of Gethsemane, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death".

Jesus is the Son of God because He was birthed or begotten by the Father, who could not be a father if He did not beget. To beget means to produce something of the same kind (a human begets a human, God begets God), meaning Jesus is fully divine and eternal, with no beginning or end.
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1) No verse or passage of scripture says Jesus had a human soul.

2) No verse or passage says his human soul was united to His divine person.

3) No one said Jesus did not experience deep human emotions, grief and distress.

4) No one said Jesus did not have a Divine Soul/Spirit.

5) God the Son was not created, but Jesus the physical man was fathered and birthed.

6) No need to offer a redefinition of beget, Logos was with God in the beginning and was God, thus eternally existent.

And here was what I said:

1) Monegenes does not mean fathered, it means unique or one of a kind.

2) Modern translations have corrected the mistranslation found in the KJV.

3) The Nicene Creed is in error.

4) Jesus had one Divine Spirit/Soul

5) The reason Jesus was uniquely Divine is that He was God incarnate. No other "son of God" has that distinction.
 
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V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are plenty of people who believe the "soul" operates independently from the spirit and the body, a third part of man. When asked what does the soul do independent of the body or spirit, we get crickets. When the spirit departs, the body dies. What happens to the so called third part, the soul? Imagine a "soulless spirit" with no personhood, no mind, no core attitudes and attributes.

Once we discard the 3 part view, then the soul becomes a "part" of the spirit, thus we have a "spirit/soul. Our human mind reflects the spiritual input from our spirit AND the input from our physical body. We want to avoid pain, our biology teaches us to think that way. We have what is called "the lusts of the flesh" which also tends to guide our desired behavior.

Jesus had the mind of Christ, which also had input from His physical body. He wanted to avoid pain, i.e. let this cup pass from Me. He had all the human attributes, thus His mind was 100% like a human even with the Soul/Spirit of God the Son.

The effort to claim Jesus could not be fully man unless He has a human spirit in addition to His Divine Spirit, is a definitional argument. On the other hand, scripture reveals that Jesus had only one Spirit, not two. Jesus had a mind like humans so He could be tempted in every way we are.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
John 1:14 NASB
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Here we see that the "Word" who in the beginning was with God and is God, became flesh, with flesh being a translation of the Greek "sarx" which refers to our physical nature, apart from any spiritual influence.

So if Jesus had two spirits, one Divine and one human, we would need to expand the meaning of "sarx" so we could translated the verse, And the Word became flesh and spirit, and dwelt....
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apparently none of the many Systematic Theologies mentioned in this thread answer the question:
"Is it orthodoxy to say Jesus was 100% a physical man, and 100% a Divine Spirit?

Or does the "Hypostatic Union" indicate something more? The word "hypostatic" simply refers to our underlying substance, which in our case is the union between our human spirit and our physical body.

I see many claims Jesus had to have a human spirit to be "truly man" but that is simply a claim. Scripture indicates over and over Jesus had one Spirit which was divine.

Which brings me back to the thread topic, we need to check and see if what some systematic theology, or what to believe confession, actually can be supported by a contextual study of the verses given as support for the man-made claim.

If we simply adopt the view of others, our views reflect indoctrination, not bible study.
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Well-Known Member
The Word (Logos which existed as Spirit with the Father and the Holy Spirit in Heaven) became flesh (was born as a human while remaining divine).
 
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