Age of Accountability

Salty · Friday at 12:18 AM

So most of us believe that babies who die - will go do Heaven.
Do you believe the Scriptures teach that?

We have heard the term "Age Of Accountability"
( I know the Bible does not use that term - and it does not mention Trinity!)

So is there a concept of the age of accountability"

If a man still has the brain of a one-year old - would he go to Heaven?

I realize that this discussion can go in several directions - and that is okay

Open for discussion

David Lamb · Friday at 2:24 AM

Salty said:
So most of us believe that babies who die - will go do Heaven.
Do you believe the Scriptures teach that?

We have heard the term "Age Of Accountability"
( I know the Bible does not use that term - and it does not mention Trinity!)

So is there a concept of the age of accountability"

If a man still has the brain of a one-year old - would he go to Heaven?

I realize that this discussion can go in several directions - and that is okay

Open for discussion

I think the furthest we can go with this matter is to ask Abraham's rhetorical question, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (see Genesis 18:25).

I used to teach teenagers with teenage bodies but minds of one-year olds. I couldn't begin to explain the gospel to these youngsters who were unable to feed or wash themselves, or even use the toilet. I trusted God to "do right."

Reynolds · Friday at 3:16 AM

Salty said:
So most of us believe that babies who die - will go do Heaven.
Do you believe the Scriptures teach that?

We have heard the term "Age Of Accountability"
( I know the Bible does not use that term - and it does not mention Trinity!)

So is there a concept of the age of accountability"

If a man still has the brain of a one-year old - would he go to Heaven?

I realize that this discussion can go in several directions - and that is okay

Open for discussion

I really don't think Scripture deals with it. It is my understanding that Christianity adopted AOA from Jewish tradition. This is not in C vs A forum, so I won't go there. All I can say is the elect had their name written in the book before the foundations of time. It is a mystery left in the hands of God.

Mike B · Friday at 4:35 AM

Salty said:
So most of us believe that babies who die - will go do Heaven.
Do you believe the Scriptures teach that?

1. Absolutely.

2. Honestly don't know, but I would still accept it as factual as I believe it's within the character of God.

My wife has a question: When we are in Heaven in our new bodies, who is going to get to take care
of all the babies?

Yep...that's my Mrs. ...always asking for the impossible.

Salty · Friday at 5:58 AM

Y E S - This is absolutely NOT C vs A!

Armchair Apologist · Friday at 10:09 AM

Reynolds said:
I really don't think Scripture deals with it. It is my understanding that Christianity adopted AOA from Jewish tradition. This is not in C vs A forum, so I won't go there. All I can say is the elect had their name written in the book before the foundations of time. It is a mystery left in the hands of God.

I beileve that Romans 5 makes a good case namely with the phrase "sin is not imputed where there is no law." It is further understood that we have both the written laws of Moses as well as the natural laws written in our conscience (Rom 2). There are also the "invisible things of him from the creation of the world which are clearly seen" (Rom 1:20) which also bears witness and renders a man to be without excuse. From here, we need to ask the question: at what point is a person cognizant of that which is clearly seen whereby they are culpable and without excuse? Of what awareness does a newborn infant have regarding such things? We also have an interesting observation from Paul where he says "I was alive without the laws once but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died" (Rom 7:9).

You do not want to go into a "C vs A" debate and neither do I but this does become a hot topic in such a debate does it not? I remember Leighton Flowers just about going into "Full Meltdown" mode during a debate with James White over Calvinists condemning babies to hell but he was either completely ignorant of the topic or he was trying to emotionally manipulate the audience. Flowers is far from being ignorant so I would have to assume the latter but such is neither here nor there but what is clear is that he blatantly misrepresented the view of most Calvininsts!

The reformed crowd often pokes fun at Baptists regarding the so-called "age of accountability" but such is clearly taught with their "Federal View" which is cornerstone to their covenant theology and of which I would largely agree! I am not going to get into a big dissertation here but with a few keystrokes in a search engine, one may study this out for themselves and compare Federalism (Covenant Theology) with Seminalism (Roman Catholic and Lutheran position) which actually does damn unbaptized infants either to limbo or Hell.

I wonder if there was a certain age at which a child growing up in OT Israel would be considered personally responsible and of which he or she would bring their own sin offering to the temple? Perhaps this is where the tradition of the Bar (Bat) Mitsvah comes into play.

I believe it wrong if not dangerous to decree as specific age as being the "Age of Accountability" as such would be different for every individual. When one first comes to the realization that they are a sinner and therefore guilty before God, this would be their "Age of Accountability" and the individual is responsible to God in regards to how they deal with this. As a child growing up in Roman Catholicism, I started attending catechism classes (CCD) in preparation for the Sacrament of Pennance and my "First Communion" and I would guess that at such a time, a child would probably fall from the "state of grace" of their baptism and would therefore need to be restored through the sacraments of penance and the eucharist. Baptists often pressure kids into some sort of "Decision" in their grammar school years and kids often go through the "Pray the sinners prayer and ask Jesus into their heart" ritual without fully understanding the implications aside from the fact that all of their other friends are doing it.

Van · Friday at 10:51 AM

I do not believe non-believers, no matter their age or cognitive ability, go to Heaven. But I do believe there is a age of accountability, roughly 12, below which God does not hold the child accountable for his or her ignorance and consequent sin. I believe God determines the specific age for each individual based on His knowledge of their mind's development. I believe God's perfect justice allows these non accountable non-believers to rest in piece.

I was raised attending Sunday School so I qualified for Hades well before 12.

percho · Friday at 11:53 AM

I believe a baby is, a anthrōpos, Which Jesus spoke of as one and or anyone. I believe one who is born of the flesh must also be born of the spirit in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom of God, prepared, from the foundation of the world regardless of when death in the flesh comes.

Salty · Friday at 12:11 PM

percho said:
I believe a baby is, a anthrōpos, Which Jesus spoke of as one and or anyone. I believe one who is born of the flesh must also be born of the spirit in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom of God, prepared, from the foundation of the world regardless of when death in the flesh comes.

Apparently, you are saying that a baby will not be in Heaven. Are you saying that baby will go to Hell?

percho · Friday at 12:22 PM

Salty said:
Apparently, you are saying that a baby will not be in Heaven. Are you saying that baby will go to Hell?

I'm saying it is up to God not the baby. Can you birth yourself?

Can you just take the Spirit and birth yourself or is it truly the gift of God to whom he chooses/knowes to give it?

Acts 15:8 and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us,
Acts 8:20 And Peter said unto him, 'Thy silver with thee -- may it be to destruction! because the gift of God thou didst think to possess through money;

Salty · Friday at 12:37 PM

percho said:
I'm saying it is up to God not the baby. Can you birth yourself?

Can you just take the Spirit and birth yourself or is it truly the gift of God to whom he chooses/knowes to give it?

Acts 15:8 and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us,
Acts 8:20 And Peter said unto him, 'Thy silver with thee -- may it be to destruction! because the gift of God thou didst think to possess through money;

You quoted the verse: "one who is born of the flesh must also be born of the spirit in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom of God," Taken that literary - if you are not born of the Spirit - you dont go to Heaven - rather you go to Hell.
So does this apply to babies

Ben1445 · Friday at 1:11 PM

1 Samuel 12:22-23
And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Was David saying that he believed that he himself was going to hell with his unbelieving child or that his child was already with God, where David was going?

David believed in something of an AOA.

Kai · Friday at 5:36 PM

I think there is a strong biblical and logical case for believing that infants and those who lack the mental capacity to understand right from wrong are not held accountable in the same way as someone who knowingly and willingly rejects God.

I have a hard time reconciling the idea that God would decree the existence of an infant or someone with the cognitive ability of a one-year-old, knowing they would die and spend eternity in hell, having never understood sin, never consciously rejected Him, and never had any awareness of why they were being punished. Eternal torment would be the only conscious experience they would ever know.

That raises some serious questions about God's justice and character. I don't think we should be so committed to a particular theological system that we're unwilling to wrestle honestly with those implications.

SovereignGrace · Friday at 7:10 PM

Salty said:
So most of us believe that babies who die - will go do Heaven.
Do you believe the Scriptures teach that?

We have heard the term "Age Of Accountability"
( I know the Bible does not use that term - and it does not mention Trinity!)

So is there a concept of the age of accountability"

If a man still has the brain of a one-year old - would he go to Heaven?

I realize that this discussion can go in several directions - and that is okay

Open for discussion

Let's let the word of God settle this:

Then Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; [pb]but put to death[/b] both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 15:1-3]

They utterly destroyed everything in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.[Joshua 6:21]

Then in Joshua 8, they did the same to Ai as they did Jericho. God does not see babies and infants the same way we do.[/u]

percho · Friday at 7:52 PM

Salty said:
You quoted the verse: "one who is born of the flesh must also be born of the spirit in order to see, enter and inherit the kingdom of God," Taken that literary - if you are not born of the Spirit - you dont go to Heaven - rather you go to Hell.
So does this apply to babies

I do not see heaven in contrast to hell anywhere in John 3. It just states one must be born of the spirit to see and or enter the kingdom of God.
Is it about the kingdom of God or is it about heaven and hell [Hades]?
Question. Is the kingdom of God of John 3 the same kingdom of God that 1 Cor 15:50 states flesh ans blood cannot inherit?
Is that the same kingdom of God Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and others will sit down in of Luke 13:28,29

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

When do you think Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will inherit the kingdom?

Lets talk about David.

'Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known; this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay; whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it, for David saith in regard to him: I foresaw the Lord always before me -- because He is on my right hand -- that I may not be moved; because of this was my heart cheered, and my tongue was glad, and yet -- my flesh also shall rest on hope, because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption; Thou didst make known to me ways of life, Thou shalt fill me with joy with Thy countenance. Acts 2:22-28

Who is the prophet David speaking of there? ----- Jesus the Nazarene ----- Not himself. ------ What does Peter say concerning David?

V 29 'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; And Acts 13:36 says he saw corruption...

On Pentecost 50 days after the weekly sabbath following the death of Jesus the Nazarene Peter says the soul of David was in dead in Hades and his flesh had seen corruption. David went to his baby son and in order to inherit the kingdom of God both will need to be born again. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. He also went to his fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

IMHO that is what the word of God states.

I do believe the baby of David will be in the kingdom of God. According to mercy and grace of God.

Ascetic X · Friday at 8:02 PM

SovereignGrace said:
Let's let the word of God settle this:

Then Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; [pb]but put to death[/b] both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 15:1-3]

They utterly destroyed everything in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.[Joshua 6:21]

Then in Joshua 8, they did the same to Ai as they did Jericho. God does not see babies and infants the same way we do.[/u]

Babies and young infants, who do not know right from wrong, good from bad, do not have damnable deeds to deserve hell.

Pagan children were sometimes killed along with adults to avoid the kids growing up and seeking revenge against Israel.

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:6

who will render to every man according to his deeds

SovereignGrace · Friday at 8:19 PM

Ascetic X said:
Babies and young infants, who do not know right from wrong, good from bad, do not have damnable deeds to deserve hell.

Pagan children were sometimes killed along with adults to avoid the kids growing up and seeking revenge against Israel.

Matthew 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:6

who will render to every man according to his deeds

God commanded all of Jericho, Ai, and the Amalekites to be killed, even down to their infants. Why? To totally wipe away their existence. We know who God is as the bible tells us "God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all"[ John 1:5] and that He would not command the killing of the innocent, as that would be commanding them to murder. Babies are not innocent in His sight is my point.

Ascetic X · Friday at 8:44 PM

SovereignGrace said:
God commanded all of Jericho, Ai, and the Amalekites to be killed, even down to their infants. Why? To totally wipe away their existence. We know who God is as the bible tells us "God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all"[ John 1:5] and that He would not command the killing of the innocent, as that would be commanding them to murder. Babies are not innocent in His sight is my point.

Babies are innocent, for they cannot commit evil. Pagan babies, as I explained, were sometimes killed to prevent them growing up and seeking revenge on Israel. They might also lead Israel astray into pagan practices.

Babies do not sin. To think they do is ridiculous.

Does God send babies to hell who did not know right from wrong, and had no evil deeds?

Romans 2:6

who will render to every man according to his deeds

Romans 9:14

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!

Psalm 5:4

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil cannot dwell with you.

SovereignGrace · Friday at 8:53 PM

Ascetic X said:
Babies are innocent, for they cannot commit evil. Pagan babies, as I explained, were sometimes killed to prevent them growing up and seeking revenge on Israel. They might also lead Israel astray into pagan practices.

Babies do not sin. To think they do is ridiculous.

Does God send babies to hell who did not know right from wrong, and had no evil deeds?

Romans 2:6

who will render to every man according to his deeds

Romans 9:14

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!

Psalm 5:4

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil cannot dwell with you.

Babies are not innocent. If they are, then God commanded the Israelites to murder them. The wages of sin IS death. If babies are sinless, then they cannot die. If babies are sinless, they cannot die even in the womb. You are making Planned Parenthood's arguments for them. Kudos!!!

Van · Friday at 9:02 PM

Van said:
I do not believe non-believers, no matter their age or cognitive ability, go to Heaven. But I do believe there is a age of accountability, roughly 12, below which God does not hold the child accountable for his or her ignorance and consequent sin. I believe God determines the specific age for each individual based on His knowledge of their mind's development. I believe God's perfect justice allows these non accountable non-believers to rest in piece.

1) Which verse or verses support the idea that non-believers of any age or mental capacity go to heaven? We know that they were condemned initially. John 3:18.

2) I do believe in an age of accountability, as babies in the womb have done nothing good or bad. Romans 9:11. Therefore being initially non-believers is not consider a bad thought or action.

3) Here are our only three choices to guess at: (1) they go to Hades, (2) they go to Heaven, and (3) they rest in peace without an afterlife.

4) We know that unless a person is born anew, they cannot enter Heaven, John 3:3-5. And you must be a believer in the truth as determined by God to undergo the washing of regeneration.

Age of Accountability

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