Age of Accountability

Ascetic X said:

Babies are innocent, for they cannot commit evil. Pagan babies, as I explained, were sometimes killed to prevent them growing up and seeking revenge on Israel. They might also lead Israel astray into pagan practices.

Babies do not sin. To think they do is ridiculous.

Does God send babies to hell who did not know right from wrong, and had no evil deeds?


Romans 2:6

who will render to every man according to his deeds


Romans 9:14

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!


Psalm 5:4

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness; evil cannot dwell with you.

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Here is where we really need to understand the doctrine of imputation and all it entails. As Martin Luther called it, "the sweet exchange", meaning our sins were imputed to Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us. When our sins were imputed to Him, He claimed them as His own. The Father then treated His Son as if He was the One who committed those sins. We see this here: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.[2 Cor. 5:21] God treated His Son as if He was the transgressor of His law, even though He committed not one sin. The same with Adam's sin; his sin was imputed to us and God treats us, even babies in the womb and in infancy, as if they were the ones who were in the Garden committing that sin. This is why babies die in the womb and in infancy, due to Adam's sin.

SovereignGrace said:

Here is where we really need to understand the doctrine of imputation and all it entails. As Martin Luther called it, "the sweet exchange", meaning our sins were imputed to Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us. When our sins were imputed to Him, He claimed them as His own. The Father then treated His Son as if He was the One who committed those sins. We see this here: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.[2 Cor. 5:21] God treated His Son as if He was the transgressor of His law, even though He committed not one sin. The same with Adam's sin; his sin was imputed to us and God treats us, even babies in the womb and in infancy, as if they were the ones who were in the Garden committing that sin. This is why babies die in the womb and in infancy, due to Adam's sin.

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You are making the case for abortion then. A fetus, according to you, is evil, so it is okay to kill them.

Planned Parenthood applauds you.

Ascetic X said:

You are making the case for abortion then. A fetus, according to you, is evil, so it is okay to kill them.

Planned Parenthood applauds you.

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That’s rich. I have never advocated such a thing.

SovereignGrace said:

Babies are not innocent. If they are, then God commanded the Israelites to murder them. The wages of sin IS death. If babies are sinless, then they cannot die. If babies are sinless, they cannot die even in the womb.

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I think you're conflating physical death with personal guilt. The fact that babies die doesn't prove they have willfully sinned against God. The wages of sin is death, but that doesn't mean every person who dies has personally committed a conscious act of disobedience.

I would distinguish between inheriting a fallen condition from Adam and being personally guilty of sin. Sin, in the moral sense, involves knowing disobedience to God's law. An infant who has no capacity to understand or consciously choose disobedience cannot be held accountable in the same way as someone who knowingly rebels against God.

Kai said:

I think you're conflating physical death with personal guilt. The fact that babies die doesn't prove they have willfully sinned against God. The wages of sin is death, but that doesn't mean every person who dies has personally committed a conscious act of disobedience.

I would distinguish between inheriting a fallen condition from Adam and being personally guilty of sin. Sin, in the moral sense, involves knowing disobedience to God's law. An infant who has no capacity to understand or consciously choose disobedience cannot be held accountable in the same way as someone who knowingly rebels against God.

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How can someone sinless die? Physical death is just as much a part of the fall as is spiritual death.

I have shown with scriptural references that God does not view babies as being innocent in His sight. It would be contrary to His holy nature to command the murdering of anyone He views being innocent. Killing the innocent = murders. Killing the guilty = biblical justice.

Mike B said:

1. Absolutely.

2. Honestly don't know, but I would still accept it as factual as I believe it's within the character of God.

My wife has a question: When we are in Heaven in our new bodies, who is going to get to take care
of all the babies?

Yep...that's my Mrs. ...always asking for the impossible. View attachment 14724

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If babies are resurrected as babies, then elderly ppl are resurrected as elderly.

SovereignGrace said:

How can someone sinless die? Physical death is just as much a part of the fall as is spiritual death.

I have shown with scriptural references that God does not view babies as being innocent in His sight. It would be contrary to His holy nature to command the murdering of anyone He views being innocent. Killing the innocent = murders. Killing the guilty = biblical justice.

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God rewards people according to their deeds.

Romans 2:6

God will repay each person according to what they have done.

Babies and fetuses have no sinful deeds, so they are innocent in God’s eyes. When they die, it cannot be due to their personal sins. Even when adults die, it is not always due to their sins. The apostles of Jesus died due to lethal persecution. People may die due to their bodies wearing out in old age.

I hope you do not go to funerals and proclaim “This person died because of their sins!”

You contradict what Jesus said about children. Children are so innocent, Jesus said we must become like them to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 18

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

SovereignGrace said:

If babies are resurrected as babies, then elderly ppl are resurrected as elderly.

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I have wondered about this. I believe we will be in the resurrection who we are in this present age minus the sin and minus our present decrepit, corrupted bodies.

I have been told that we will all be 33 years old as Christ was when he was crucified and resurrected but what of his appearance in Revelation with his hair being "White like wool?" Will we be static in our age and stature even in the age to come in our resurrected bodies? I am not saying that we will "Grow old" (as we understand it now) but will there or will there not be any distinction between those who are older or younger in age?

Our personalities have developed over time through experience, what we have learned, and so forth and has literally become who and what we are. Will this all go away in the age to come? If the answer is no, then what of the infants who hardly experienced a life in this present world and have therefore not had the time to develop who they would've become as mature adult human beings?

What will I look like in the age to come? A man who will likely live no longer than 80-something years (unless I get run over by a Peterbilt or something) as compared to Adam who had lived 900+ years on this earth? How would my level of wisdom and knowledge be in comparison to his? How would our level of wisdom and knowledge be compared to someone who died in infancy having never even learned to talk or voice his or her own opinion? I do not think they will be resurrected as "infants" but they may likely be in infancy regarding knowledge and experience and will have all of eternity in which to catch up with everyone else and we who have had opportunity to live full lives are not anywhere close to being finished with our own learning!

My thoughts anyway.

Armchair Apologist said:

I have wondered about this. I believe we will be in the resurrection who we are in this present age minus the sin and minus our present decrepit, corrupted bodies.

I have been told that we will all be 33 years old as Christ was when he was crucified and resurrected but what of his appearance in Revelation with his hair being "White like wool?"

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The hair of Jesus appeared white due to His holy purity, not being elderly.

Armchair Apologist said:

Will we be static in our age and stature even in the age to come in our resurrected bodies? I am not saying that we will "Grow old" (as we understand it now) but will there or will there not be any distinction between those who are older or younger in age?

Our personalities have developed over time through experience, what we have learned, and so forth and has literally become who and what we are. Will this all go away in the age to come? If the answer is no, then what of the infants who hardly experienced a life in this present world and have therefore not had the time to develop who they would've become as mature adult human beings?

What will I look like in the age to come? A man who will likely live no longer than 80-something years (unless I get run over by a Peterbilt or something) as compared to Adam who had lived 900+ years on this earth? How would my level of wisdom and knowledge be in comparison to his? How would our level of wisdom and knowledge be compared to someone who died in infancy having never even learned to talk or voice his or her own opinion? I do not think they will be resurrected as "infants" but they may likely be in infancy regarding knowledge and experience and will have all of eternity in which to catch up with everyone else and we who have had opportunity to live full lives are not anywhere close to being finished with our own learning!

My thoughts anyway.

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The answers to your questions must be based on God’s wisdom and love.

Our resurrected body will be perfect, so that must include apparent age. I think the ideal age physically is possibly 33 or 22 years old. For believers in ancient times, that ideal age might be 100 or even 800 years old, when some lived many centuries.

Our personalities along with our bodies will be transformed. All of our self-centered pursuits, sinful indulgences, and ungodly quirks will be washed away. Our interests in music, nature, animals, geology, astronomy, food, family, chemistry, history, art, etc. will remain in a purified condition. The interests we developed in this life may determine what jobs we are assigned in the afterlife.

The universe will be very different, since there will be no sun or sea. Hard to imagine specifically what life will be like in the new heavens and new earth.

Nobody will need to catch up with anyone. We all will be like Christ, more fully than we were in this life.

I suppose that aborted fetuses and infants who died young will be what they could have been in this life, only in a perfected state. I think like angels, we will all be the same “age” in a sense, but with resurrected bodies in a timeless heaven, age is irrelevant.

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

SovereignGrace said:

How can someone sinless die? Physical death is just as much a part of the fall as is spiritual death.

I have shown with scriptural references that God does not view babies as being innocent in His sight. It would be contrary to His holy nature to command the murdering of anyone He views being innocent. Killing the innocent = murders. Killing the guilty = biblical justice.

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Yes, you've provided your scriptural references, but you're taking that and assuming something that doesn't logically follow.

The fact that babies die doesn't by necessity lead to the conclusion that they must be personally guilty of sin. It establishes that babies, like the rest of humanity, live in a fallen world. Biblically, a sin is specifically defined as transgressing God's law (1 John 3:4). We need to be careful not to confuse the inherited consequence of physical death with personal acts of disobedience.

So let me ask you these straightforward questions: What law has a baby knowingly and willfully disobeyed? What specific sin has that baby committed? And on what basis will they be judged and sent to their eternal damnation?

Salty said:

So most of us believe that babies who die - will go do Heaven.
Do you believe the Scriptures teach that?

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No.

Salty said:

So is there a concept of the age of accountability"

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Again, no, at least not apart from the traditions and beliefs of men.

Paul's letter to the Romans, for example, is clear in that no one seeks God and all have sinned...
The penalty for sin is everlasting punishment in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20 ).


I'm not sure where this "loophole" came from ( other than David's saying that he would go to his son that God took from him in 2 Samuel 12 ), but I see no concrete support for this idea anywhere in God's word.

Salty said:

If a man still has the brain of a one-year old - would he go to Heaven?

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I see God's word teaching that the basis of anyone having eternal life is God's love for the individual before the world began;
In light of this, all of the "conditions" the Scriptures teach ( post-resurrection of Christ ) must be met ( evidentially ) in the saved individual...

This includes God sending a preacher ( Romans 10, 1 Corinthians 1, Ephesians 5 ), the person hearing and believing the word of God ( Romans 10 ), them coming to repentance ( 2 Peter 3 ), them being baptized ( Mark 16 ), etc.
Everything that the word of God says must characterize a believer, must be there from God's point of view... the new birth, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and so forth...or they are not saved.

Every one of God's children is foreknown, is predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's Son, will be called through the preaching of His word, is justified by the blood of their Saviour and will be glorified ( Romans 8 ). Every one of them will go through the same process that God's word says that they must all go through.


There is no "free pass", there are no exceptions.

Ascetic X said:

The hair of Jesus appeared white due to His holy purity, not being elderly.

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Jesus is immutable in his deity, not his humanity. I agree that the imagery in Revelation likely portrays his holiness, majesty, and power. At his resurrection, his disciples knew who he was meaning to me he likely did not change too much in appearance but would his appearance change somewhat over the timespan of 2,000 years? I do not think he would be "growing old" but likely growing in the stature and majesty of which John observes when he is taken up into the third heaven.

Ascetic X said:

The answers to your questions must be based on God’s wisdom and love.

Our resurrected body will be perfect, so that must include apparent age. I think the ideal age physically is possibly 33 or 22 years old. For believers in ancient times, that ideal age might be 100 or even 800 years old, when some lived many centuries.

Our personalities along with our bodies will be transformed. All of our self-centered pursuits, sinful indulgences, and ungodly quirks will be washed away. Our interests in music, nature, animals, geology, astronomy, food, etc. will remain in a purified condition.

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We will be sinless, we will be like Jesus being holy and complete in glorified bodies fully redeemed from the penalty, power, and presence of sin! We will no longer have any sinful desires but I believe we will have desires that are distinctly human - a desire to learn, investigate, explore, and understand things and I believe that we will continue with this learning and understaning new things throughout eternity! We will never grow old because we will never stop growing - perhaps not physically but I think you know of what I am speaking right?

Ascetic X said:

Nobody will need to catch up with anyone. We all will be like Christ, more fully than we were in this life.

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We won't be able to. Based upon the photo in your avatar, I would guess you are a few years older than myself and I will never catch up with you!

Ascetic X said:

I suppose that aborted fetuses and infants who died young will be what they could have been in this life, only in a perfected state. I think like angels, we will all be the same “age” in a sense, but with resurrected bodies in a timeless heaven, age is irrelevant.

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We will have opportunity to talk with some of these and I'm sure questions will arise regarding our life experiences on a sin-cursed earth of which they have little to no personal knowledge.

Ascetic X said:

Beloved, now we are the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.

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We will be like him having a glorified body but we will not have perfect knowledge of everything. Jesus alone is omniscient. We may "Understand it better by and by" but our understanding will always be a work in progress and I believe this is one thing that will make eternity such a thrill!

Dave G said:

No.

Again, no, at least not apart from the traditions and beliefs of men.

Paul's letter to the Romans, for example, is clear in that no one seeks God and all have sinned...
The penalty for sin is everlasting punishment in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20 ).

I'm not sure where this "loophole" came from ( other than David's saying that he would go to his son that God took from him in 2 Samuel 12 ), but I see no support for this anywhere in God's word.

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Here is your “loophole”.

Babies and little children go to heaven when they die because they have not willfully disobeyed God.

In fact, we must all become like little children to enter heaven.

Matthew 18

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Dave G said:

I see God's word teaching that the basis of anyone having eternal life is God's love for the individual before the world began;
In light of this, all of the "conditions" the Scriptures teach ( post-resurrection of Christ ) must be met ( evidentially ) in the saved individual...

This includes God sending a preacher ( Romans 10, 1 Corinthians 1, Ephesians 5 ), the person hearing and believing the word of God ( Romans 10 ), them coming to repentance ( 2 Peter 3 ), them being baptized ( Mark 16 ), etc.
Everything that the word of God says must characterize a believer, must be there from God's point of view... the new birth, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and so forth...or they are not saved.

Every one of God's children is foreknown, is predestinated to be conformed to the image of God's Son, will be called through the preaching of His word, is justified by the blood of their Saviour and will be glorified ( Romans 8 ). Every one of them will go through the same process that God's word says that they must all go through.


There is no "free pass", there are no exceptions.

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According to your logic here, in order to go to heaven, you must live long enough to understand the gospel of Christ and turn to him in repentance and faith as you have said yourself - "there are no free passes or exceptions."

This also would mean that all infants who haven't opportunity to hear and understand the gospel are in hell?

Or perhaps you believe that if one is "Elect," it matters not whether they have heard the gospel message?

Dave G said:

There is no "free pass", there are no exceptions.

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I dare you to tell a woman who had a miscarriage or a still birth that her child went to hell because it was evil.

Dave G said:

Paul's letter to the Romans, for example, is clear in that no one seeks God and all have sinned...
The penalty for sin is everlasting punishment in the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20 ).

I'm not sure where this "loophole" came from, but I see no support for this anywhere in God's word.

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Dave

The real issue isn’t what an infant has done to deserve going to Heaven; it’s what they’ve done to deserve going to Hell.

And this isn’t a loophole; it’s a question of what sin really is. No one seeks God, and everyone has sinned—but that implies they had the mental capacity to seek or reject God in the first place. That must be true if the Judge of all the earth is indeed just (Genesis 18:25).

I'll keep saying inherited mortality and a fallen human condition are not the same thing as personally committing sin. If you believe they are, you need to demonstrate that distinction from Scripture rather than simply assume it.

Kai said:

Dave

The real issue isn’t what an infant has done to deserve going to Heaven; it’s what they’ve done to deserve going to Hell.

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The real issue is, what does God's word say about all of us?
About mankind as a group and as individuals?

"There is none righteous, no not one."

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." <---This is the condition of all infants, no matter how young they are. This is the desperate situation that all of us as men find ourselves in, apart from the grace and mercy of God.

Dave G said:

The real issue is, what does God's word say about all of us?
About mankind as a group and as individuals?

"There is none righteous, no not one."

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." <---This is the condition of all infants, no matter how young they are. This is the desperate situation that all of us as men find ourselves in, apart from the grace and mercy of God.

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You're still not addressing the distinction I'm making between having a fallen nature and personally committing sin.

Psalm 58:3 uses poetic language about the wicked going astray from birth. It doesn't establish that a newborn has consciously and willfully violated God's law.

Romans 3 establishes that humanity is sinful, but it doesn't answer the question of individual moral accountability. My point is simple: guilt for willful disobedience presupposes the capacity to understand and choose that disobedience. A newborn doesn't have that capacity.

So again, I'm not denying the Fall or our fallen nature. I'm asking you to show me where Scripture says an infant is personally guilty of a willful transgression of God's law.

Dave G said:

The real issue is, what does God's word say about all of us?
About mankind as a group and as individuals?

"There is none righteous, no not one."

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." <---This is the condition of all infants, no matter how young they are. This is the desperate situation that all of us as men find ourselves in, apart from the grace and mercy of God.

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Then why did Jesus say we must become like little children?

“Speaking lies as soon as they are born” is hyperbole, not literal. It means they lie all the time. Babies do not speak the moment they come out of the womb.

Matthew 18

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.