All perfectly honest and aboveboard, and similar things have happened in Japan. And of course C4K is an established missionary who entered the country honestly and is hiding nothing!
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ethics question
- Thread starter dfi
- Start date
I agree completely, HankD, and this is a great Scripture for the discussion. When a person forces their way into a closed field, in particular by dishonesty, to me they are trying to take over the task of the "Lord of the Harvest."
Baptist Bob.1
New Member
Is it problematic for a Baptist Union of pastors to elect as their leader a man who knowingly hired Free Methodists or Covenant Theology people to work in his ministry? This could be confusing the Baptist distinctives - right? I heard that a number of years ago Baptists walked out of a meeting in Virginia when a Presbyterian preacher from Ireland was invited on the platform. Was that right for them to do that?
lindell dunning1
New Member
It's too bad that Elisha and Jeremiah didn't have access to this discussion. Perhaps they would have reconsidered their actions.
2 Kings 8:7-15 and Jeremiah 38:14-28
2 Kings 8:7-15 and Jeremiah 38:14-28
The missionaries that I know in closed countries go in using a platform. This means that they have some skill or professional experience that allows them to enter the country in order to help the nationals with that particular skill or profession. As they work at this task they also are able to share their faith with whom they build relationships.
I like this forum, I recently found it. I have been told by those in Michigan that the independent baptists in that state asked a pastor to serve as the president of their affiliation who hired presbyterians to work in his school. Just when their group had almost gotten over their controversies.
Hope of Glory
New Member
I don't think most indepentent Baptists are opposed to affiliations of association, but they are opposed to affiliations of direction. For example, we are a member of an association that shares a camp, and we get together once or twice per year for fellowship.
To all who have an ear:
Some examples that may need to be considered.
1. Rahab the harlot in Jericho. Go back and read that narrative again. Did she lie? Was the lie justified?
2. "Bro. Andrew" who smuggled Bibles into and behind the Iron Curtain countries in the post-WWII era. Was he doing "God's will with a pure conscience" or not?
3. How about Deitrich Bonhoffer who was in on the plot to assassinate Hitler. Was that ethical behavior in which a Christian minister should engage?
"Is it ever right to do wrong in order to have a chance to do right?"
Points to ponder.
sdg!
rd
Some examples that may need to be considered.
1. Rahab the harlot in Jericho. Go back and read that narrative again. Did she lie? Was the lie justified?
2. "Bro. Andrew" who smuggled Bibles into and behind the Iron Curtain countries in the post-WWII era. Was he doing "God's will with a pure conscience" or not?
3. How about Deitrich Bonhoffer who was in on the plot to assassinate Hitler. Was that ethical behavior in which a Christian minister should engage?
"Is it ever right to do wrong in order to have a chance to do right?"
Points to ponder.
sdg!
rd
Thank you for clarifying, Hope of Glory.
If I remember right, didn't Brother Andrew not lie? I thought he just brought Bibles across the border, and there were many instances where the guards would look straight at them and not seem to see that they were Bibles.
To be direct, I don't think its right to do wrong to get a chance to do right. But I think God will protect us in those cases when we are needing protection in order to do right.
If I remember right, didn't Brother Andrew not lie? I thought he just brought Bibles across the border, and there were many instances where the guards would look straight at them and not seem to see that they were Bibles.
To be direct, I don't think its right to do wrong to get a chance to do right. But I think God will protect us in those cases when we are needing protection in order to do right.
1. Yes she lied, but her faith justified her, not her lie, so the lie was not justified! (Does that come out right?
)2. I discussed Brother Andrew and bible smugglers on p. 2. He didn't lie or go in under false pretences as I recall, and neither have others.
3. Nope, I don't see how a preacher could participate in a plot to kill a leader, even one as evil as Hitler, based on 1 Tim. 3.
Having said that, maybe I should inject something I wrote in a different context about the concept of misdirection.
"Misdirection is that psychological technique by which you divert the attacker's attention from you, cause him to hesitate for just a moment, put fear into his heart that he himself will fail or be in danger, or even cause him to believe what he thinks he sees instead of what really is there.
Do not mistake misdirection for deliberate deceit. God Himself used misdirection in His battle plan given to Joshua at the second battle of Ai. Notice these verses from Joshua 8: 'And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear not, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land: And thou shalt do to Ai and her king as thou didst unto Jericho and her king: only the spoil thereof, and the cattle thereof, shall ye take for a prey unto yourselves: lay thee an ambush for the city behind it.' An ambush is a form of misdirection, and it was God who ordered it. If you study the rest of the passage (vv. 1-29) you find that the soldiers of Ai deceived themselves into thinking they had won, and every single one of them (v. 17) surged out of their city to destruction in spite of the fact that they knew that Israel had a much greater army.
In truth, what destroyed them was not God's stratagem so much as their own pride. That is the whole point of misdirection. The opponent deceives himself into foolhardiness or cowardice because of his own pride and arrogance. The person employing misdirection has not sinned by deceiving someone, but only 'set up' his opponent for self-deception.
A Biblical ethic will not allow me to lie, even to save my life. However, that does not mean that I must tell everything I know. In the old poser used as an excuse for dishonesty by the philosophy of situation ethics, it is assumed that when someone comes to the door to kill your friend, your only options are to tell them where he is or to tell a lie. There are at least two other options. 1. Oppose evil with force. 2. If evil is stronger, misdirect evil. For example, in answer to the question, 'Where is your friend so I can kill him?' the statement, 'Have you checked at the park?' would not be a lie, but might very well send the killer on his way!
I am not responsible for what some fool chooses to believe instead of the truth. According to Solomon, 'The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.' (Prov. 14:15) If an attacker deceives himself by misinterpreting what he sees or hears then that is his fault and not mine. The truth is, every time you use a fake or a feint in sparring you are using misdirection. Other possibilities in a self-defense situation include: faking fear or despair, pretending to see a policeman (the old 'What's that behind you?' trick), pretending to have a partner or weapon, etc.'" (A Christian Philosophy of Self Defense, by John R. Himes, p. 19-20)
Baptist Bob.1
New Member
That is the point I was trying to make. Here in Minnesota we have MBA (Minnesota Baptist association) We also have Central Seminary. Both are stongly baptistic. Does Michigan have a seminary that would help to teach Baptist Polity (we only hire baptists)? Are there men of character who would ask a potential candidate if they have strong baptist tendancies?
Just wondering.... Is this new guy in Michigan from a baptist school or does he line himself up with inter denominational schools?
Food for thought.
Good questions. Our homework for SS class tomorrow was to find scriptures that would back up when it was ok to lie if it ever is. One lady actually brought up Rahab, so now we need to find scriptures to support this position in these kinds of scenario.
Baptist Bob.1
New Member
If they lied then they should be dismissed.
If the pastor failed to investigate their adherence to the fundamentals of the faith and Baptist doctrine... then he should be dismissed for gross incompetence. </font>[/QUOTE]
Baptist Bob.1
New Member
Gross incompetence. That is what took place. How can a Baptist hire outside of Baptist doctrine. What message does that send? We Hire anyone because we are in a tight spot? or Fundamentals of the faith don't matter. Where are the MBBC grads of MI to stand up and fight this nonsence? I notice MBBC advertises on this sight. How about keeping Baptist standards high?
Baptist Bob,
please understand, I think there's a difference between a group being unethical about who they hire, versus that group being unBIBLICAL about who they hire.
We have no idea who this group in Michigan is, or if this is more than just a rumor that has spiraled out of control. For all we know it could be that the man had hired FORMER Presbyterians to work in his school. We just don't have good enough info on that situation to decide either way.......
please understand, I think there's a difference between a group being unethical about who they hire, versus that group being unBIBLICAL about who they hire.
We have no idea who this group in Michigan is, or if this is more than just a rumor that has spiraled out of control. For all we know it could be that the man had hired FORMER Presbyterians to work in his school. We just don't have good enough info on that situation to decide either way.......
Baptist Bob.1
New Member
Here's the problem. It is not unbiblical to hire a saved person of another stripe. Business does that all the time. But a Baptist Pastor hiring a presbyterian just to fill a position is wrong. I'm told that couple no longer is at that church and they are back at their Presbyterian Church. Shame on both pastor and hirling for not having guts to stand up for what they believe and then more shame on the pastor for sweeping this character fault under the rug when asked to serve as a Baptist Asssociation President.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
If he lies on the shipping manifest the answer would be "yes."
If he lists "Bibles" as part of what he is shipping, or the contents don't need to be listed, then no.
If he lists "Bibles" as part of what he is shipping, or the contents don't need to be listed, then no.
Hear, hear. In fact, nowadays very few say they are "smuggling" Bibles into China. While the house churches are still being viciously persecuted, in many other ways things are much looser.