Early Church Confession!!!!

Yes those who are staunch Baptist Briders hold this position......But as far as my studies has taken me......I can find no Bibical grounds for such a belief.......Yes you are correct their is always some who feel deemed to presuade all that they and they alone have the exact truths....that is why II Tim. 2:15 is such an important admonishment for any believer to follow.

 

Well Tim as I stated I would not fall out with what you believe.....

But this same passage sorta shows me exactly what I stated......notice Pauls language here...."the body of Christ"......not the church of Christ.....

Body or Church well!!!!!!!!!!!..I'm just thankful that I'm assured of the fact....."I'm His"

 

It seems that so often we take a good idea and push it to extremes that are illogical and unnecessary. If there is no fellowship or connection between local churches, then where is the Kingdom, and, indeed, where is there any sort of mutual accountability?

I have always been fascinated by groups -- not all of them Baptist -- that argue vehemently for the local church as the only legitimate Christian expression, and then find it necessary to create fellowships for mutual support! Isn't an "association" of "independent" churches an internal contradiction?

Except that it does not need to be! My entire ministry has been within American Baptist and/or Southern Baptist churches, and I have never found anybody trying to govern me from outside. We CHOSE to associate in order to receive support and engage in missions.

 

Joseph,

the vast majority of Independent Baptist churches DO HAVE fellowship with other nearby local churches. This does not mean that we all belong to the same "Fellowship". For instance, our church hosts a Ladie's Retreat each year and we invite several other churches to come with. Its a wonderful time, and it is always so neat to see the same ladies each year, and meet new ones. We'll have youth camps where more than one church sends their kids, we run it jointly with one of the other churches. We also have missions conferences and Pastor's conferences in which we see other groups from local churches.

You guys who are NOT IFB seem to think we just sit in our little corner of town, playin' around in our own little "garden" and not talking to anybody else because we almost believe no one else even exists.

Thats not how it is. Why is it such a big deal (or such a seemingly grave concern) that we aren't in a FEllowship or Association?

 

Originally posted by bapmom:

You are absolutely correct, bapmom. IFB churches get together and do alot of things. The only thing that makes an IFB church different than those who adhere to "confessions" and belong to "Associations and Conventions", is that each local church is self governing and autonomous and the only thing they adhere to is the Bible. I would suggest that if you are interested in knowing more about IFBs, here is a site you might be interested in reading:

http://www.baptistinfo.com/define.shtml

 

Where did Jesus tell someone to write out a confession? I see where He said if we deny Him before men, He will deny us before the Father.

I see where Paul wrote with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are to confess Jesus, yes. But why do we need another man's confessions? Can we not speak for ourselves?

So many rely on the Westminster Confessions, Synods of Dordt, Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, and other man's written words as if they don't have a mind or tongue of their own.

 

I'm not for sure if this is what he is talking about.. I grew up in IFBs. And we did fellowship with other IFBs....but....
after I got married I joined a church that did belong to an IFB "fellowship" It was a group of about 20 churches that met every quarter.. they had a president, secretary, and treasurer..

They also preached against the evils of "associations" but never considered itself one. To me this type of "fellowship" is the same as association.

 

The Word of God needs no Creeds, nor any confessions to magnify or enhance it. 'The Word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than a two edged sword....' Hebrews 4:12.

Scripture must interpret scripture. Too often, man puts his own thoughts and ideas about God's Word in books; and many of those books do not even line up with scripture.

I discount any book or written material that adds to, takes away from, or changes the Word of God.

As I said before, confession is made with the tongue; audible. We cannot base our Salvation on other people's confessions. We cannot ride into heaven on another's faith.

The Bible teaches in Romans 12:3 that 'to each man was given the measure of faith' We all have our own faith. It is what we do with that faith that matters. Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will remember the name of the Lord our God.

 

Would you say the same about a church covenant?

Isn't it a sorta creed?

 

COVENANT

A covenant is an agreement and a promise. It is also called a testament. I would think a covenant would be like a "contract". God made covenants with Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David. Israel's future existence, restoration and kingdom is based on God's promise to Abraham and David. This is why the kingdom is certain in spite of Israel's rebellion. The covenants are unconditional and eternal.

Matthew 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

CREED

A statement of belief.

 

Actually the IFB churches in our area consider it a feat when 3 of the 7 can actaully show up for a Bible Conference. It's not that we don't think IFB'ers don't do anything it's just that many have the mentality that they are independent and will not work with anyone.

 

I agree 105 % with Rhet. Creed or confessions of faith are not damaging or contradictory of the Baptist faith. In 1689 Baptists in England signed the Baptist Confession of Faith which our church has no problem subscribing to.

 

can you show us an instance in the Bible where Confessions were signed in the Bible?

 

Can you show me where the Pastor wears a tie? Can you show me where they sing Amazing Grace? Can you show me where they used pews? Can you show me an instance of the NT church ever using instruements?

 

Actually, that depends on who is making the covenant and what their obligations are.

There are 2 kinds of covenants:

Diathetic and synthetic.

Diathetic: covenants between unequal parties.
Synthetic: covenants between equal parties.

A covenant is simply a contract. There a certain conditions each party must meet. There are covenants between God and man, like the Abrahamic Covenant or the New Covenant. There is even a covenant between the Persons of the Godhead, some call this the covenant of redemption. See the London Baptist Confession of 1689.

Then there a covenants between men. That would be a standard church covenant or any legal covenant. The Mosaic Law, including the civil code is written as Suzerain Covenant in form. Scripture is littered with covenants between men. For example, this is what the laws of vows and promises were about under the civil law in Israel.

Historically, there is no creed after Chalcedon. All others are called confessions.

All of us adhere to Nicea and Chalcedon. I'd add that John Calvin made an adjustment to Chalcedon because Valentinus was using it to preach heretical Christology (a form of Arianism) during the Reformation. Calvin changed the parts in the original about the Son (and by extension the Spirit) proceeding from the Father (the parts Valentinus was using to assert adoptionism/Arianism) to say that the Son is autotheos (self-existent).

Baptists have used confessions for centuries. Typically, they stipulate what cooperating groups will tolerate within their sphere.

In the SBC, they use the BFM as a denomination. It is fairly forgiving, but the churches themselves can have their own confessional documents. The serve an apologetic purpose as well. If you look at the LCBF 2 for example, it is quite extensive. It includes Scriptures and it invites scrutiny. Historically, when we have drifted from our confessions, we have had problems doctrinally. For a list of Baptist confessions go here:

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/hbd.htm


Sola Scriptura has never meant "Scripture only" it means only Scripture is infallible, but creeds, confessions, and theologies, etc. may be used insofar as they are treated as fallible dcouments that may help inform us of the parameters of cooperation and instruction about the rule of faith that has been handed down. They can be revised, even abandoned, upon the exegesis of Scripture.


see here: http://www.founders.org/FJ03/article2_fr.html

 

But it contains creeds used by the first century church within its very pages. It also contains creeds used by Israel.

The Shema "Hear O Israel, the Lord Your God is One" is a creed.

Acts 10:36; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 12:3; and Philippians 2:11--These are all early creeds.

Acts 15 is the first use of Church Council, and it produces a confession on justification by faith.

Hebrews talks about the instructions being given about 'ablutions' to converts.

In fact, I found this list:

eut. 6:4: Hear O Israel, the LORD is our God, the LORD
alone.

1 Kings. 18:39: And when all the people saw it, they fell on
their faces; and they said, "The LORD, he is
God; the LORD, he is God."

Matt. 16:16: Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ,
the Son of the living God."

Matt. 28:19: Go therefore and make disciples of all
nations, baptizing them in the name of the
Father and of the Son and of the Holy
Spirit.

John 1:49: Nathan'a-el answered him, "Rabbi, you are
the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"

John 6:68-69: Simon Peter answered him, "Lord to whom
shall we go? You have the words of eternal
life; and we have believed, and have come to
know, that you are the Holy One of God."

John 20:28: Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Acts 8:36-37: And as they went along the road they came to
some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here
is water! What is to prevent my being bap-
tized?" And Philip said, "If you believe
with all your heart, you may." And he
replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the
Son of God.

Acts 16:31: And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus,
and you will be saved, you and your house-
hold."

1 Cor. 8:6: yet for us there is one God, the Father,
from whom are all things and for whom we
exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through
whom are all things and through whom we
exist.

1 Cor. 12:3: Therefore I want you to understand that no
one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says
"Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus
is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 15:3-7: For I delivered to you as of first impor-
tance what I also received, that Christ died
for our sins in accordance with the scrip-
tures, that he was buried, that he was
raised on the third day in accordance with
the scriptures, and that he appeared to
Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he
appeared to more than five hundred brethren
at one time, most of whom are still alive,
though some have fallen asleep. Then he
appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

Phil. 2:6-11: who, though he was in the form of God, did
not count equality with God a thing to be
grasped, but emptied himself, taking the
form of a servant, being born in the like-
ness of men. And being found in human form
he humbled himself and became obedient unto
death, even death on a cross. Therefore God
has highly exalted him and bestowed on him
the name which is above every name, that at
the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in
heaven and on earth and under the earth, and
every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is
Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Tim. 3:16: Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of
our religion: He was manifested in the
flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by
angels, preached among the nations, believed
on in the world, taken up in glory.

Hebr. 6:1-2: Therefore let us leave the elementary doc-
trine of Christ and go on to maturity, not
laying again a foundation of repentance from
dead works and of faith toward God, with in-
struction about ablutions, the laying on of
hands, the resurrection of the dead, and
eternal judgment.

1John 4:2: By this you know the Spirit of God: every
spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has
come in the flesh is of God.

The Apostles Creed developed from what they used to ask new converts before their baptism.

Without Nicea and Constantinople, we might be Arians today. When Chaledon is exceeded you end up with Monophystism or Nestorianism as heresies.

"No creed but the Bible" is itself a creedal statement.

 

It is total amazing to me all the hubbub about associations and creeds..... Folks Study the History book of the New Testament of the church..
"ACTS"
Believe one will find that there is taught association between the churches....

Believe also you will find that creeds of sorts can be found in chapt. 21 after an association meeting was held.

Of course this is just my oppinion....read and judge for yourselves.....


arkie pastor

 

I'm not for sure if this is what he is talking about.. I grew up in IFBs. And we did fellowship with other IFBs....but....
after I got married I joined a church that did belong to an IFB "fellowship" It was a group of about 20 churches that met every quarter.. they had a president, secretary, and treasurer..

They also preached against the evils of "associations" but never considered itself one. To me this type of "fellowship" is the same as association. [/QB][/QUOTE]


I agree. And if we are so big on being independent, I never understood why these sorts of associations existed. Im not over concerned with it, but it has always seemed odd to me, nonetheless.