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How to Answer Catholic Apologists About Early Church "Fathers' " Quotes

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Malachi, Mar 27, 2006.

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  1. Malachi

    Malachi New Member

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    Hi there. I am a Independant Fundamental Baptist looking for rebutals on Early Church "Father's" quotes used by Catholic Apologetics. Here are some I would like to hear rebuttal for. I will start with the "rebirth" and then go to the "Eurcharist". Here are some quotes about how they "viewed" the rebirth...as "baptismal regeneration". I look forward to your replies. Here is a CA quote:

    "Early Christians were very clear on "born again" in John 3:5 referring specifically to baptism: "Early Christians were very clear on "born again" in John 3:5 referring specifically to baptism:

    JUSTIN MARTYR

    "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

    IRENAEUS

    "'And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan' [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

    TERTULLIAN

    "[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, 'Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life'" (Baptism 12:1 [A.D. 203]).

    RECOGNITIONS OF CLEMENT

    "But you will perhaps say, 'What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?' In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so . . . you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: 'Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water . . . he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven'" (Recognitions of Clement 6:9 [A.D. 221]).

    CYPRIAN

    "[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, 'Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'" (Letters 71[72]:1 [A.D. 253]).

    COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE VII

    "And in the Gospel our Lord Jeus Christ spoke with his divine voice, saying, 'Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' . . . Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ" (VII Carthage [A.D. 256]).

    BASIL

    "This then is what it means to be 'born again of water and Spirit': Just as our dying is effected in the water [Rom. 6:3, Col. 2:12-13], our living is wrought through the Spirit. In three immersions and an equal number of invocations the great mystery of baptism is completed in such a way that the type of death may be shown figuratively and that by the handing on of divine knowledge the souls of the baptized may be illuminated. If, therefore, there is any grace in the water, it is not from the nature of water, but from the Spirit's presence there" (The Holy Spirit, 15:35 [A.D. 375]).

    AMBROSE

    "The Church was redeemed at the price of Christ's blood. Jew or Greek, it makes no difference; but if he has believed, he must circumcise himself from his sins [in baptism (Col. 2:11-12)] so that he can be saved . . . for no one ascends into the kingdom of heaven except through the sacrament of baptism. . . . 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God'" (Abraham 2:11:79-84 [A.D. 387])."
     
    #1 Malachi, Mar 27, 2006
  2. Petrel

    Petrel New Member

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    Are you looking for Scripture refuting this view or are you looking for evidence from their writings that they didn't actually believe this? It's unclear.
     
    #2 Petrel, Mar 27, 2006
  3. Malachi

    Malachi New Member

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    Hello Petrel. I guess what I am asking is for some "comeback" that diminishes the importance of these early Christians believing what they did. IS it not important? If not, why? What other "defensive" techniques could we use?
     
    #3 Malachi, Mar 27, 2006
  4. bapmom

    bapmom New Member

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    Are you getting some good answers over in the Theology Forum?

    My thought about this was that no matter who says it if it contradicts the Bible than we go with the Bible. There is a verse on that.......but right now I can't remember it...Im sure others can, as its very well-known.
     
    #4 bapmom, Mar 27, 2006
  5. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    Probably Isaiah 8:20

    "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
     
    #5 Pipedude, Mar 28, 2006
  6. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    Malachi
    I think it is actually against the forum rules to start the same thread on more than one page.
     
    #6 mioque, Mar 28, 2006
  7. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    Interesting quotes Malachi. After doing a search on the writings of these characters, I am starting to question our own belief in the Baptismal Regeneration. I did not know these writings existed. My next question is why my Preacher has never mentioned these writings of our early church fathers? This is disturbing me to no end. THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED SOMETING CONTRADICTORY TO WHAT WE BELIEVE?
     
    #7 mojoala, Mar 28, 2006
  8. Pipedude

    Pipedude Active Member

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    Careful, Mojo; you're already starting to sound like Joey Warren.
     
    #8 Pipedude, Mar 28, 2006
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Mark 7:13 You revoke God's word by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many other similar things."

    Collosians 2:8 Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

    Here's a quote I have from a RC pamphlet I took while attending an infant baptism (I know, I hated it!)

    "Is Scripture the sole rule of faith for Christians? Not according to the Bible. While we must guard against merely human tradition, the Bible contains numerous references to the necessity of clinging to apostolic tradition."

    What garbage. It's like the apostles were greater than "mere human tradition", not that the apostles started any of these heretical "traditions".
     
    #9 webdog, Mar 28, 2006
  10. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    You stepped inside a Roman Catholic Church? :eek: And you celebrated/participated in an Infant Baptism? :eek: Did you ask for God's forgiveness later for performing this sacrilege? :eek:
     
    #10 mojoala, Mar 28, 2006
  11. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    I guess I would start it out by asking my catholic friend how a baby who cannot walk or talk make any decision about salvation.That child is not old enough to form the words salvation,God,Jesus,or any other words.How is this child old enough to make any kind of decision?

    I would put it that way because catholics prctice and believe in infant baptism.
     
    #11 Plain Old Bill, Mar 28, 2006
  12. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I would say that even if these early Christian fathers believed in baptismal regeneration, it does not line up with scripture and so must be rejected. I might even say, if it's a true "tradition," it will not go against scripture.

    A lot of the early Christian fathers said some rather strange things.
     
    #12 Marcia, Mar 29, 2006
  13. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    You stepped inside a Roman Catholic Church? :eek: And you celebrated/participated in an Infant Baptism? :eek: Did you ask for God's forgiveness later for performing this sacrilege? :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]How many Hail Marys did you have to say?
     
    #13 tinytim, Mar 29, 2006
  14. mojoala

    mojoala New Member

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    ? tinytim
     
    #14 mojoala, Mar 29, 2006
  15. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Satan has put wolves in the flock since day one--they are dressed like sheep. On the inside they are filled with lying wonders and hypocrisy.

    Many of the "holy" fathers erred from the Word of God, which is the only rule of faith and practice for the New Testament Assembly(some have translated this "church").

    Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly eliminates baptism having any saving qualities--it is a work which involves two people to acomplish--works in both cases--someone to administer and someone to submit. These are all acts of righteousness, having no redemption properties whatsoever. Now what? "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." John, the Baptizer, pointing to Jesus.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #15 Bro. James, Mar 29, 2006
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You stepped inside a Roman Catholic Church? :eek: And you celebrated/participated in an Infant Baptism? :eek: Did you ask for God's forgiveness later for performing this sacrilege? :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I stepped in a catholic church. So what? The same lost people I ask to come to my church asked me to attend my nieces "baptism". I went as a witness to my family, and did not participate in any way. Did I ask forgiveness for what? Did Christ ask forgiveness for eating and drinking with tax collectors and Pharisees?...which you sound like one of. [​IMG]
     
    #16 webdog, Mar 29, 2006
  17. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    Just a joke! haha
     
    #17 tinytim, Mar 30, 2006
  18. Malachi

    Malachi New Member

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    Now I get it. Is it a secret?
     
    #18 Malachi, Mar 30, 2006
  19. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    mojoala said:

    This is disturbing me to no end. THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED SOMETING CONTRADICTORY TO WHAT WE BELIEVE?

    Yes, sometimes they did. They weren't infallible, after all.

    If you read Augustine's Confessions, for example, you see his mother preparing for his baptism at a time when he was seriously ill, but they drop the plans after he recovers. This seems odd, unless you realize that during the first few centuries, there was an erroneous belief common in the Church that serious sin after baptism was virtually unforgivable. Therefore, it was common practice to postpone someone's baptism until they were on their deathbed.

    Know what the early Fathers taught, but recognize that they were still trying to hammer a lot of practices out formally, especially in the first few centuries. Roman Catholics like to establish doctrine by citing authority and precedent, hence their reliance on the Fathers. Know why it is you believe what you believe, and establish it by Scripture, which trumps the Fathers.
     
    #19 Ransom, Mar 31, 2006
  20. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Hammering out a faith and practice...is contrary to scripture. See Jude 3, "Earnestly contend for The Faith which was once delivered to the saints.' See also: "When The Holy Spirit is come, He will lead you in all truth..."

    The main reason God gave His Word and His Spirit to the churches is because men fail utterly at everything--including translation and interpretation of the Word of God. The correct Faith and Practice has been preserved by the power of God through the Bride of Christ, the New Testament Churches--even through the dark ages. See Mt. 16:18, Eph. 3:21.(Surely not the holy see, nor her daughters)

    That doctrinal errors have crept in unawares is a fact--we are told to reprove, rebuke and exhort. That the Bride has come out from among the error and remained undefiled is also a fact. You probably will not find Her address on the religion page of the Daily News. She is out there, preserved by the power of God.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
    #20 Bro. James, Mar 31, 2006
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