1980 was a pivotal year in Fundamentalism

Originally posted by TheWinDork:
Nowdays, the Fundamental Baptist movement is overran with False Doctrine out the Wazoo! I mean, You've got Ruckman and his False Dcotrines, I'm sorry, but *ANY* man who says he's gotten personal revelations out of the KJV and that the KJV corrects the original greek and hebrew is in error, just that simple. Because the Bible says VERY CLEARLY:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:20-21)

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Yet, Ruckman *CLAIMS* he has recieved his own private revelations about scriptures, and Yes, I've seen his supposed personal revelations and quite frankly, I don't know who's more goofier, the person writing the stuff or the people the really believe what he writes!

I mean, I've read his "scandal rag" he writes, even though it's supposed to be available by password only, only thing is, it's not behind a secure server, so, anyone that knows how to use google toolbar, can read it with ease... anyhow, I've read the stuff and I came away with the general feeling that the guy is, 1.) Goofier than a box of rocks. 2.)A hyper-dispensaionalist 3.) Spiritually in Apostasy 4.)A True-Blue KJV Cultist

I mean, don't get me wrong, I use KJV myself, But I also use commentaries, Dictionaries, and I even look at other versions for comparison!

Now I'm not about to toss my KJV in the trash, But Ruckman takes that stuff a little too far. It's all a matter of language... He teaches that the KJV is the INSPIRED Word of God, which is, truthfully bunk, and the doctrine of double inspiration. But the truth, and It's there if you know where to look, is that the KJV is the Preserved Word of God. It follows a line of 7 different Bibles, starting with tyndale and ended at the KJV, of Preservation, and that's it! All that other bunk that Ruckman, Jack Chick and other people throw in there is just stupid foolishness. Jesus didn't speak in KJV english, he spoke in Aramaic. Too bad alot of people don't know this.

Further more, I believe in the KJV, but I'm not about to tell someone their not saved if they don't read it, that's foolishness, and further more, what about the spanish speaking people? and other people in other countries? Like Napal? Russia? What about those Christians? are they lost too?

And we that believe that about the KJV, we trust in the KJV, that God has preserved his Word well enough for us to be able to understand it, However, It would be foolish for me to just read KJV, and never look at anything else, that's just plain inmaturity.. I believe that the Lord gave us wise men, like Matthew Henry, Matthew Poole, Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, David Brown, Dr. John Gill, John Nelson Darby, Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Johann (C.F.) Keil, Franz Delitzsch, Cyrus Ingerson Scofield, David H. Sorenson, and host of others that have given lives to the teaching of the Word of God. and one can lord alot from reading thier commentaries... Not that there words are infallable, but they do help!

It's just sad to see that Dr. Hyles followed in Ruckman's footsteps after Rice died and turned into Apostasy. Equally sad to see, is his son-in-law, is doing the very same thing.

The real funny thing is, is who Dr. Sheldon Smith has turned the Sword of the Lord into a KJV movement paper... that's the real sad part.

Well, enough of this man's rambling... </font>[/QUOTE]In my experience (with 50 supporting churches) there are very few IFBers who would go as far as Ruckman. The major IFB schools (BJU, Tennessee Temple, Maranatha BBC, Northland BBC, Pillsbury BBC, etc.) certainly do not teach Ruckmanism, even if they are ostensibly KJVO (PCC and the seven dwarfs).

Such as I figured.

PCC and the seven dawrfs.. too funny!

I too remember back when I used to love to read The Sword... Back before Smith got it,

I subscribed about 18 months ago, and cancelled my subscription... I can't beleive what SOME modern IFBs has turned fundamentalism into..

Sorry to all the IFBs out there, but I know some churches that are almost cults....
One on the radio this morning stated that only their brand of baptists have the truth of God...

The KJV + their interpretation = truth.

Sorry, but when a church teaches that they are the only ones that have truth, they are a cult.
And I know some IFBs that teach this.

Now I also know some IFBs that are great.

But I am saddened by the road that some like Smith, Hyles, and Ruckman, have taken the IFBs.

My dad, who use to be a IFB preacher, is looking for a IFB church that teaches what he taught 30 yrs ago.... He can't find one! They are all now KJVO! where he lives.

Not to mention the legalism that these churches are teaching.... Yes legalism... the real stuff.
Not holiness, but legalism... the type that says that you must be a certain way, do certain things, and look (well basically like a mormon missionary) a certain way, before you can be accepted by God.

I understand the differences between holiness and legalism, and they are teaching legalism.

I do miss JRR's brand of fundamentalism...
Back then I didn't mind being called a fundamentalist, but now, well....let's just say it is different..

JoJ, when is your next furlough? You may be in for a surprise when you get back to the states...
Do you know of any good Japanese Missionaries willing to come here to help straighten out this mess?

Tinytim,
I agree with you about the Sword of the Lord. I grew up with it, too. When my pastor, Curtis Hutson, left our church to go to the Sword, the emphasis of his ministry changed. He became KJVO in his later years. It was not preached to us when he was at our church. I don't know why he changed, but he did.

I also miss JRR's brand of fundamentalism. I can't find a fundamental church in our area that I agree with. That's why my family is SBC now.

How long has Smith been in charge of SoL?
When did the KJVO movement take roots in the SoL?

I enjoyed reading it in the 70s, and 80s. (I wasn't around until 1969!!! lol) Then I didn't read it again until about a yr ago... I noticed a big difference.

Why the difference?

Dr. Hutson passed away in 1995 and that is when Dr. Smith became Editor. KJVO movement began to take root while Dr. Hutson was there, I believe.

Dr. Hutson left our church in 1977 (I think) and he did not preach KJVO at that time. I don't know exactly when it changed. And I don't know why.

Did Curtis Hutson ever actually endorse KJVOnlyism? At one time, I remember him refusing to endorse the position in the Sword. Did he endorse it at a later time?

He did endorse it at a leter time, after he had been at the Sword for a long time. I have a sermon on tape where he did endorse it. It was one of his last sermons.

Originally posted by Gwen:
Dr. Hutson passed away in 1995 and that is when Dr. Smith became Editor. KJVO movement began to take root while Dr. Hutson was there, I believe.

Dr. Hutson left our church in 1977 (I think) and he did not preach KJVO at that time. I don't know exactly when it changed. And I don't know why.

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In Oct 1977 Bro H came to my church in Louisville, and I "surrendered" to preach.
I have a cassette sermon where he rightfully corrects the KJV w/ the Greek, and the thought was, if he dared do this today in many of our IFB churches..God forbid! I mean, May it never be!

So what do you all think could be done to fix the fix we are in?

Originally posted by tinytim:

JoJ, when is your next furlough? You may be in for a surprise when you get back to the states...
Do you know of any good Japanese Missionaries willing to come here to help straighten out this mess?

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We just finished a 6 month furlough last may, most of which was involved with finishing up the M. A. I started in 1976 We really don't want to take another for about five more years--imagine leaving the church you pastor for a whole year!

So anyway, to be strictly honest we didn't get to more than about half of our supporting churches last year and in a mini-furlough in 2002, but somehow I've mostly stayed away from the radical type IFB churches in my supporting churches. We have a great bunch of supporting churches, and about 10% of our IFB churches don't even use the KJV!

Of course then there are my family connections, which to be strictly honest (again!) mean that pastors treat me differently, and maybe don't show their radical side to me. Who knows! It also means though that our supporting churches are almost all sympathetic to the JRR position on these issues.

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
So what do you all think could be done to fix the fix we are in?

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My view? Continue the new IFB emphasis on missions. It is changing the IFB movement from the inside. Even FBC of Hammond now has a mission board, and it is going great guns! Mark my words, FBC is changing through this.

For the record here, I am KJV preferred (it is what I use in the States) and TR preferred (I am translating a new Japanese NT from the TR).

Now, here is what happens to a KJVO missionary when he starts working cross-culturally, or an American pastor when he actually examines the situation on the mission field. He is forced to change his position, based on what he sees on the field. I do not mean situation ethics by this, I simply mean that the reality doesn't match his doctrine and he has to learn to deal with that Biblically.

If he investigates the situation in the Spanish language he will learn that there are two competing "KJV-type" translations in Spanish. How does he choose? He is forced to look at the quality of the translation itself rather than simply comparing it to the KJV.

In 2002 and last year I talked to IFB preachers who were getting a greater burden for missions and learning the translation situation on the fields of the world. One influential pastor told me that we IFBers need to start developing young language scholars who can translate from the Greek and Hebrew into the languages of the world, even if such young men are the introverted and scholarly type!!

Now, if you come to Japan with the KJV0 position you will be sadly disappointed. As I have said often on the BB, there are not only no "KJV-type" Bibles in print in Japanese, there are no NTs from the TR. A KJVO missionary thus has to use what he considers a modern version--or quit and go back home! The next step is that he loses what I call his Americo-centric (or English-language centered) view and begins to view the world as God views it.

Here are a couple of true stories to illustrate what I mean. First of all, a radical KJVO type came to our island some years ago, discovered there were no KJV-type Bibles in print here, and asked his pastor in America what to do. He ended up placing the KJV on the pulpit next to his Japanese Bible so the blessings would somehow rub off! He also ended up quitting the field!

In another case, when I taught at a Bible institute in Tokyo, the dean one day told me about a class where he taught the students that God preserved His word through the KJV because he (the teacher) had been saved and called to preach through it. However, on a test question about that, the Japanese students wrote, "God preserved His word through the KJV because God saved and called Bro. R. through it. However, we will use the SKY (Japanese version based on the NASV translation principles) since God saved us and called us to preach through it."

I don't mean to take this thread into a KJVO discussion, but simply to say, the more we emphasize reaching the world for Christ, the more the movement will improve.

Gwen:

I was at Forrest Hills when Curtis Hudson left, I was thinking is was 78 not 77. I do not recall him ever endorsing the KJVO position. I was gone and probably did not hear him preach the last 5 years of his life (90-95). I did not realize the KJVO movement came to the Sword until Shelton Smith’s leadership.

Originally posted by John of Japan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
So what do you all think could be done to fix the fix we are in?

Click to expand...

My view? Continue the new IFB emphasis on missions. It is changing the IFB movement from the inside. Even FBC of Hammond now has a mission board, and it is going great guns! Mark my words, FBC is changing through this.

For the record here, I am KJV preferred (it is what I use in the States) and TR preferred (I am translating a new Japanese NT from the TR).

Now, here is what happens to a KJVO missionary when he starts working cross-culturally, or an American pastor when he actually examines the situation on the mission field. He is forced to change his position, based on what he sees on the field. I do not mean situation ethics by this, I simply mean that the reality doesn't match his doctrine and he has to learn to deal with that Biblically.

If he investigates the situation in the Spanish language he will learn that there are two competing "KJV-type" translations in Spanish. How does he choose? He is forced to look at the quality of the translation itself rather than simply comparing it to the KJV.

In 2002 and last year I talked to IFB preachers who were getting a greater burden for missions and learning the translation situation on the fields of the world. One influential pastor told me that we IFBers need to start developing young language scholars who can translate from the Greek and Hebrew into the languages of the world, even if such young men are the introverted and scholarly type!!

Now, if you come to Japan with the KJV0 position you will be sadly disappointed. As I have said often on the BB, there are not only no "KJV-type" Bibles in print in Japanese, there are no NTs from the TR. A KJVO missionary thus has to use what he considers a modern version--or quit and go back home! The next step is that he loses what I call his Americo-centric (or English-language centered) view and begins to view the world as God views it.

Here are a couple of true stories to illustrate what I mean. First of all, a radical KJVO type came to our island some years ago, discovered there were no KJV-type Bibles in print here, and asked his pastor in America what to do. He ended up placing the KJV on the pulpit next to his Japanese Bible so the blessings would somehow rub off! He also ended up quitting the field!

In another case, when I taught at a Bible institute in Tokyo, the dean one day told me about a class where he taught the students that God preserved His word through the KJV because he (the teacher) had been saved and called to preach through it. However, on a test question about that, the Japanese students wrote, "God preserved His word through the KJV because God saved and called Bro. R. through it. However, we will use the SKY (Japanese version based on the NASV translation principles) since God saved us and called us to preach through it."

I don't mean to take this thread into a KJVO discussion, but simply to say, the more we emphasize reaching the world for Christ, the more the movement will improve.

</font>[/QUOTE]John,

I agree with your assessment completely.

We have 5 missionary families and two single ladies who are missionaries to the deaf in Mexico. Two families are from TTU, one family and the two ladies are from BBC Springfield, and two families are from PCC. We are all Baptists, we all fellowship together as often as possible and cooperate in a camp for the deaf every year. In the 7 1/2 years we have been here we have never had a discussion about KJVO, Calvinism/Arminianism, or anything outside of perhaps a little discussion about how much a person needs to understand of the WORD of God and how much they can understand just visually to be saved. I can truly say with the Psalmist, "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"

Originally posted by Mexdeaf:
John,

I agree with your assessment completely.

We have 5 missionary families and two single ladies who are missionaries to the deaf in Mexico. Two families are from TTU, one family and the two ladies are from BBC Springfield, and two families are from PCC. We are all Baptists, we all fellowship together as often as possible and cooperate in a camp for the deaf every year. In the 7 1/2 years we have been here we have never had a discussion about KJVO, Calvinism/Arminianism, or anything outside of perhaps a little discussion about how much a person needs to understand of the WORD of God and how much they can understand just visually to be saved. I can truly say with the Psalmist, "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"

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You know what, my Brother? We will have been here 25 years next month, and as far as I remember the two illustrations I gave above are about the only times I can remember talking with another missionary about the KJV issue. It is off the radar on most mission fields of the world. And most of the other things discussed on the BB, as you mention, are complete non-issues here. The more the churches in the States get serious about reaching the world for Christ, and not just their little corner, the less these things will matter and the more obeying Christ's commands will matter!

The more the churches in the States get serious about reaching the world for Christ, and not just their little corner, the less these things will matter and the more obeying Christ's commands will matter!

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I will give you a big AMEN on that brother. The problem is they are not serious about reaching our own little corner either.

Originally posted by North Carolina Tentmaker:
Gwen:

I was at Forrest Hills when Curtis Hudson left, I was thinking is was 78 not 77. I do not recall him ever endorsing the KJVO position. I was gone and probably did not hear him preach the last 5 years of his life (90-95). I did not realize the KJVO movement came to the Sword until Shelton Smith’s leadership.

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You are correct, he did not preach KJVO at Forrest Hills. To the best of my memory, he preached a sermon later in his ministry called "Sail Away" or maybe "Sailing Away" or something like that. He did endorse KJVO in that sermon. It was probably in 93-95 time frame. I have the tape somewhere. I'll have to look it up, if you are interested.

BTW, this was a radical departure from what he taught at FH. He always was careful NOT to say KJV was the only translation, but taught us to make sure the translation we used was accurate. I remember him saying that the best translation was the one his mother used--she lived the Bible.

I was very surprised to hear him go over to KJVO in his later years.

Lord, send a revival to this country, and let it begin with ME!!!

My Pastor, Larry Chappell, is doing expository sermons on Revelations...and I am learning so much. Inappropriate version comment snipped

[ April 27, 2006, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]

John of Japan, could you point me to an authorized biography of your grandfather, and to a statement of beliefs? Google offers an array of sites that don't quite speak to either one. Thanks very much!

Correct me if I am wrong, but did the Fundamental Movement begin because there was a desire to get back to the fundamentals of our faith--in reaction to error being taught in the previously conservative seminaries and churches. We were taught (in the early 70's)not just what the fundamentals were, but why it was important to believe them. Has the movement gotten completely away from this, and the focus changed from the fundamentals of our faith to divisive things?

I agree with John of Japan that things changed after Dr. Rice died. But why? Did he not teach us well? How soon we forget!