Originally posted by Chris Temple:
Originally posted by Baptist Vine:
[qb]What about the verse in Revelation 3:5 that mentions that suggest a name might be removed from the book of life?
Where does it say in Rev 3:5 that a believer will be removed from the book of life? It says just the opposite:
Rev. 3:5 (ESV)
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments,
and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
I agree, that the ultimate statement, primary action and intent of Rev. 3:5 is that a name WILL NOT be blotted out. AIKI also makes this exact same point in the second post in this thread replying to my initial question.
"Who says that Rev. 3:5 talks about names being blotted out?: Well, I wasn't exactly committing myself to a position or statement that it did.
I was asking the question IF. IF Jesus says he won't blot out a name (which I acknowledge is indeed the key point of Rev. 3:5) then does that mean there are (might?) be some names he will blot out? Is Jesus providing a disciplinary threat here - if you don't do your job church (or church member?), then I'll blot out your name????? This was my question, and I'm not pretending that it is the best question or necessarily good theology - it was just a question.
Other people have provded their answers and insight responding to this question - with appropriate scripture.
Right now, I think that presestination/election seem to provide the most clear answer - although predestination/election seem paradoxical - if even just slightly - to even the saved mind. Deep truths they might be - and I'll have to accept them - but they are not exactly simple.
Only the names of the elect who are predestined for salvation and whom will always overcome are written in the Book of Life. There is no need to consider my question of the possibility of names being removed, because it will never be necessary in the case of the elect, because as you point out in your post Mr. Temple (AIKI as well), the elect will overcome and ultimately be pure, no matter if their stock performance takes a dip somewhere along the way, ie (David, Peter just to name two).
If the character of the elect are tested, whether the purpose be to reveal or root out sin, the elect will prevail, overcome, and and bear fruit ultimately.
I'm ok with this. But bear with me, I'm just trying to figure it out a little. Surely, I can't be the only one ever to venture here.
The question I had on my last post on this subject was leading to and dealing with questions in other threads and other topics that I've been looking at here on this board. And that deals with 1 John and "knowing" that you are saved.
1 John 5:13 says, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."
My question, finally, was this. People who fall away from the faith, or who sin and never seem to repent, or never come back, such people we say were never saved in the first place. This too is contained in 1 John. This subject has also been discussed and/or alluded to on other threads.
If the above is true (and it most surely is, I'm not disputing), then we can't tell whether someone who puts up their hand up at the alter call and says the sinners prayer is part of the elect or not. Or can we?
You can have assurance of your salvation - if you're one of the 'really' saved, and if you're one of the elect and predestined. But that will only be determined for you by how well you fare in the end.
If they are of the elect then 1 John 5:13 applies. But for all we know, they could turn out to be Billy Graham or they might turn out to be Charles Templeton, in which case 1 John 2:19 is their lot. They might turn out to be a David, or a Peter, or a Judas. We don't know. God the Father knows of course, because he knows and keeps the elect/predistined doesn't he?
The assurance that the elect have is complete and undisputed. But whether you are part of the elect will be determined or evidenced by how badly you sin, and if you ever leave or not it seems. These subjects are also discussed in 1 John.
Maybe this is why 2 Peter 1:10 tells us to be all the more make eager to make our calling and election sure? And that if we add to our faith the qualities in 2 Peter 1:5-7, then we will never fall, will be kept from being ineffective and unproductive, and will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Believe me I'm not trying to be contentious here.
I accept and believe that it's the duty of the church and believers to preach security and assurance, simply because it's contained in the scripture (1 John and others). But for me, the conundrum and paradoxical nature of election and predestination remain.
Perhaps the deepest truths - being divine - have this character trait. If thats so, then I'm not deterred or discouraged by that. Take the entire book of 1 John for example. You can't claim to be without sin, there is provision if you do sin, yet you can't keep on sinning (not that you would want to - I don't), and furthermore: "But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."
When I read 1 John in it's entirety my heart is encouraged and my whole spirit feels satiated. It's like the best thing I could ever read and I want to go where it says.
These things aren't illogical by any means, no absolutely not, yet neither can they fit neatly into anyones mind - at least this is what I think, my opinion. Absolutley incredible.
Maybe this is all I'm trying to say after all.
[ April 25, 2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Vine ]
