Removing names from the book of life????

Baptist Vine · Apr 21, 2002

If this belongs in another forum or has been previously addressed, let me know.

After a long time, I think I definitely lean toward the eternal security of the believer more than any counter position. However, I have one question remaining.

What about the verse in Revelation 3:5 that mentions that suggest a name might be removed from the book of life?

If this is true, then it would look like generally that names, and hence salvation, could be removed.

I even heard John Hagee on one of his broadcasts promoting this position.

Unless of course I have that verse wrong. It does say that he who overcomes "...I will not blot out his name from the book of life..."

If Jesus is saying that he will not blot out a name, does that mean there are some whom he will? This is the question.

I would like a refutation to this if possible. Or direct me to where it might have been previously addressed/refuted.

aiki · Apr 22, 2002

It seems to me that this verse is simply a promise that a name once written in the book of life will never be removed. This appears to me to be additional support for the doctrine of eternal security, not a proof against it. Every child of God is an "overcomer" through Christ (1 Jn. 4:4) and thus all who are saved qualify as beneficiaries of this promise.

[ April 22, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: aiki ]

tyndale1946 · Apr 22, 2002

Baptist Vine said:

After a long time, I think I definitely lean toward the eternal security of the believer more than any counter position. However, I have one question remaining.
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Lean more towards it and become securely attached... I am the vine and ye are the branches. Without me you can do nothing... Since you are a blood bought child of God you think you can lose your eternal salvation? Think Again!... Its impossible!... Would Jesus shed his blood and die to lose just one?... The Word Of God says NO!... Blessed assurance Jesus is mine!... Now rest in that and tell the devil to leave you alone... You never were his!... Brother Glen

tyndale1946 · Apr 22, 2002

btw... it says book of life not book of eternal life... Who stuck the word eternal in there? Its not in my KJV... Brother Glen

tyndale1946 · Apr 22, 2002

Here is a couple of reponses from the Primitive Baptist forum you might find interesting.

Your name cannot be removed or blotted out of the book of life. If that were true that would make God a liar, and changeable. And we know that God cannot change. To believe that God would elect you and then turn around and remove you because of some work, that would set aside the doctrine of grace, and that would mean that "works", is how were getting to heaven. When Jesus speaks about having no part with him, he saying that you're still an elect child, but whatever extra you could have recieved on this earth won't be given to you. We live by grace, and we know that if grace didn't do it , that it wasn't done. Once in, always in. Never in, always out. Look at Romans 11:5-7. This should make it all clear.

The Books of Life that have been refferred to in the previuos replies are defenitley 2 different books. The LAMBS book of Life, which holds the name of all of God's children that He chose before the foundation of the world, is symbolic to eternal salvation. The Book of life you ask of is also referencing a salvation but not eternal, it's a timely salvation. It's speeking of blessings that will be removed from one's life in this world. It's (this scripture) giving a lesson on obedience. Most of the scriptures that speak of salvation in the Bible are about a timely salvation or a way of being saved here on earth from earthly harm...not eternal. We have nothing to do with our eternal condition. God finished that work! In christian love... Brother Glen

[ April 22, 2002, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

HankD · Apr 22, 2002

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

One view says that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life.
If after their earthly life is over they have not believed in Jesus Christ, then their name is blotted out of the book.

HankD

DocCas · Apr 22, 2002

I agree with HankD. When a person is conceived his name is written in the book of life, for he is alive. If, during his physical life time he believes on Christ as his Saviour, his name is over-written in the indelible blood of Christ. If, during his earthly life, he does not believe on Christ as his Saviour, upon his death his name is blotted out. That seems quite clear both from the context and by comparing scripture with scripture.

LadyEagle · Apr 22, 2002

I agree with HankD and TC...When conceived you are written in the Book of Life. If you die without accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour, your name is blotted out either at death or maybe blotted out at the Great White Throne judgment.

If true, though, it kinda puts the pro-choicer's out to pasture since they don't believe in human life at the moment of conception.

Carly33 · Apr 22, 2002

I also agree with HankD and TC, and Eagle....

I believe one's name is entered in the book of life (don't know when, could be before the creation or at conception)....and if one goes into eternity without accepting salvation it is blotted out...

...One more evidence for this fact is that God says in Pslm 139 that all your days are known to God before they even begin....verses14-16...your life is written in this book...possibly from the beginning of time...God has foreknowledge...your life saved or unsaved is recorded....

...death without Christ ensures that you also die spiritually and are blotted out of the book of life ...you have died physically and spiritually.
On the other hand, believers have eternal life...and our names remain in the book of life...

[ April 22, 2002, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Carly33 ]

Kiffin · Apr 22, 2002

Well, I guess I will be the lone dissenter
here.

All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.(Rev. 17:8)

Those who worship the beast will be those whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (that is the nonelect) and this also rightly imples that only the elect's names are in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world and that they all will come to salvation in due time and persevere to the end. Revelation 3:5 is wonderfull assurance for the elect, that they will not be blotted out since because they alone are the overcomers.

Baptist Vine · Apr 22, 2002

Lets see what we have developing here.

First, we had two different books of life as a resolution. Two books of life? Hmmmmmm. I didn't like that one too much. But I appreciate the effort to help explain.

Secondly, there is one book of life with names essentially "pre-written" in; then, depending whether salvation happens or not, the name(s) are either left in if saved, or erased if not saved. There is a certain consistency with this one, and it addreses the activiy of erasing, and does present a degree of resolution.

While I was contemplating secondly above, I began to think that I might have to venture into predestination and election to see answers. Would God not know who would be saved? Why write in names that you knew would end up being erased anyway? This is beginning to sound like an election/predestination conundrum. Now Kiffin raises those very subjects.

Is the answer to this really to be found in predestination and election? If so, then any erasing as proposed in secondly would be totally unnecessary.

If the only names contained are those that will overcome, being predestined and elected aforesaid, then there is no need for erasing. Also, mentioning that names will not be erased is a moot point and is not stated to indicate that some choice and decision will be made at a future point in time. It really won't happen at all.

You've given me a lot to think about here. There is a unifying and simple economy to this explanation - but now I'm forced to consider larger enigmas: predestination and election.

Graceforever · Apr 23, 2002

Originally posted by Baptist Vine:
Lets see what we have developing here.

First, we had two different books of life as a resolution. Two books of life? Hmmmmmm. I didn't like that one too much. But I appreciate the effort to help explain.

Secondly, there is one book of life with names essentially "pre-written" in; then, depending whether salvation happens or not, the name(s) are either left in if saved, or erased if not saved. There is a certain consistency with this one, and it addreses the activiy of erasing, and does present a degree of resolution.

While I was contemplating secondly above, I began to think that I might have to venture into predestination and election to see answers. Would God not know who would be saved? Why write in names that you knew would end up being erased anyway? This is beginning to sound like an election/predestination conundrum. Now Kiffin raises those very subjects.

Is the answer to this really to be found in predestination and election? If so, then any erasing as proposed in secondly would be totally unnecessary.

If the only names contained are those that will overcome, being predestined and elected aforesaid, then there is no need for erasing. Also, mentioning that names will not be erased is a moot point and is not stated to indicate that some choice and decision will be made at a future point in time. It really won't happen at all.

You've given me a lot to think about here. There is a unifying and simple economy to this explanation - but now I'm forced to consider larger enigmas: predestination and election.
Click to expand...

Vine, I would tell you to understand the plan of salvation… How can a sinner (deserving hell) be justified in the eyes of a Holy God… A God so holy in fact, that he condemns every person since Adam to be born in sin….

If you understand how that God can except us (He being righteous, and we being unrighteous), then every other question that would dispute your eternal son-ship would be answered….

I think substitution is where I would start, if I had to do that all over again….. There are so many bible text that are taken out of context…..

Believe this, in 1 John 5: 13 it says,

”These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
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That ye may “KNOW” that ye have eternal life…. God lets us know that we’re his…. He said he would give us eternal life and we would NEVER perish, then he tells us that we can KNOW that we have eternal life…. I take God on his word, without knowing anything else…. That is faith…..

Doubt will see all those (obstacles) places in the Bible and cause you to misinterpret them, but by faith we know that we’re the sons of God….. Peter said that some scriptures are hard to be understood, and they would wrestle with them, even to their own destruction… May God open your eyes fully to so great a salvation….
Peace, Gary

Baptist Vine · Apr 23, 2002

Everyone. Thanks for the replies to my questions on removing names from the book of life.

My motivation is not so much doubt as it is a desire to reconcile and synthesize something that makes sense, which really is in keeping with the aims of apologetics and theology in general I think.

What I'm being told here on this board is to never mind the suggestion of removing of names from the Book of Life, hold to eternal security. Predestination and election ensure that the only names written in the Book of Life in the first place are only those who will stick it out and persevere. I take this to mean by persevering that if they are good Christians they will remain that way, or grow even better. If they do mess up, they will see the erorrs of their ways and straighten out.

I like this view and it fits logically pretty well. But there are some consequences I think have to be accepted if you adopt this as doctrine. Consequences that relate to other discussions occurring on this board: imputation of rightousness for example, rewards and works in relation to salvation, wayward believers etc.

I saw one discussion that was talking about what happens if someone stops following the Lord. What happens if someone backslides, for a short time or for a long time. Some people come back, some don't ever seem to come back. Do we know who will come back or won't or who will be steadfast and never falter, or falter the least? We probably don't know at all really, at least not exactly with certainty. We can guess, but only the Father knows.

Maybe the question that really needs to be asked about the Rev. 3:5 verse is what is the relationship between works and effort and reward? After all the real question with Rev. 3:5 is, "If I sin and don't overcome, will I be removed from the book of life?" Or will I just loose heavenly rewards?

According to election and predestination, the Father knows who will persevere and overcome. Only the saved will persevere and overcome. And salvation is eternal and cannot be lost as John 10:28 and so many other scriptures state.

But we don't know who will overcome ultimately, so is it that we cannot know who is really saved? After all, the essence of predestination and election is that this informamtion is of such a divine nature that only God the Father knows and is in the know. But 1 John says WE CAN KNOW and have ASSURANCE besides, and upon confession have forgiveness for sin.

The only way to make sense of this is if overcoming and persevering are measured not by works and performance but rather are measured by the propensity of your broken spirit to acknowledge when you sin, whether you've sinned big or small, and ask for forgiveness and cry out to God as such.

If one is going to hold to the doctrine of eternal security (for which there are many scriptures), and also hold to predestination and election, then the only way to make sense out of those wayward believers who have fallen away or become entrapped again by sin is if Grace encompases even them.

If they know they have made a mistake by their addictions, adulteries, forsaking, or whatever it is they have done, and in their hearts are crying out for forgiveness, then will Christ still do all the overcoming they need? They might not have a great reward in heaven, but they will be there. Does this make sense? Not really, because 1 John also tells us that no one who knows God or has seen God keeps on sinning. The saved will persevere in that even if they sin they will be driven ultimatley to a repentance that will bear fruit.

So then, should we be telling people when it comes to knowing assurance of salvation in 1 John that the scripture declares one can know and have assurance of salvation, but WE can't really tell you if you are ultimatelly saved or not?

[ April 24, 2002, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Vine ]

Chris Temple · Apr 24, 2002

Originally posted by Baptist Vine:
What about the verse in Revelation 3:5 that mentions that suggest a name might be removed from the book of life?

Click to expand...

Where does it say in Rev 3:5 that a believer will be removed from the book of life? It says just the opposite:

Rev. 3:5 (ESV)
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Only those not elect of God will be lost.

Rev. 20:15 (ESV)
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev. 21:27 (ESV)
But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Baptist Vine · Apr 25, 2002

Originally posted by Chris Temple:

Originally posted by Baptist Vine:
[qb]What about the verse in Revelation 3:5 that mentions that suggest a name might be removed from the book of life?
Click to expand...

Where does it say in Rev 3:5 that a believer will be removed from the book of life? It says just the opposite:

Rev. 3:5 (ESV)
The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

I agree, that the ultimate statement, primary action and intent of Rev. 3:5 is that a name WILL NOT be blotted out. AIKI also makes this exact same point in the second post in this thread replying to my initial question.

"Who says that Rev. 3:5 talks about names being blotted out?: Well, I wasn't exactly committing myself to a position or statement that it did.

I was asking the question IF. IF Jesus says he won't blot out a name (which I acknowledge is indeed the key point of Rev. 3:5) then does that mean there are (might?) be some names he will blot out? Is Jesus providing a disciplinary threat here - if you don't do your job church (or church member?), then I'll blot out your name????? This was my question, and I'm not pretending that it is the best question or necessarily good theology - it was just a question.

Other people have provded their answers and insight responding to this question - with appropriate scripture.

Right now, I think that presestination/election seem to provide the most clear answer - although predestination/election seem paradoxical - if even just slightly - to even the saved mind. Deep truths they might be - and I'll have to accept them - but they are not exactly simple.

Only the names of the elect who are predestined for salvation and whom will always overcome are written in the Book of Life. There is no need to consider my question of the possibility of names being removed, because it will never be necessary in the case of the elect, because as you point out in your post Mr. Temple (AIKI as well), the elect will overcome and ultimately be pure, no matter if their stock performance takes a dip somewhere along the way, ie (David, Peter just to name two).

If the character of the elect are tested, whether the purpose be to reveal or root out sin, the elect will prevail, overcome, and and bear fruit ultimately.

I'm ok with this. But bear with me, I'm just trying to figure it out a little. Surely, I can't be the only one ever to venture here.

The question I had on my last post on this subject was leading to and dealing with questions in other threads and other topics that I've been looking at here on this board. And that deals with 1 John and "knowing" that you are saved.

1 John 5:13 says, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

My question, finally, was this. People who fall away from the faith, or who sin and never seem to repent, or never come back, such people we say were never saved in the first place. This too is contained in 1 John. This subject has also been discussed and/or alluded to on other threads.

If the above is true (and it most surely is, I'm not disputing), then we can't tell whether someone who puts up their hand up at the alter call and says the sinners prayer is part of the elect or not. Or can we?

You can have assurance of your salvation - if you're one of the 'really' saved, and if you're one of the elect and predestined. But that will only be determined for you by how well you fare in the end.

If they are of the elect then 1 John 5:13 applies. But for all we know, they could turn out to be Billy Graham or they might turn out to be Charles Templeton, in which case 1 John 2:19 is their lot. They might turn out to be a David, or a Peter, or a Judas. We don't know. God the Father knows of course, because he knows and keeps the elect/predistined doesn't he?

The assurance that the elect have is complete and undisputed. But whether you are part of the elect will be determined or evidenced by how badly you sin, and if you ever leave or not it seems. These subjects are also discussed in 1 John.

Maybe this is why 2 Peter 1:10 tells us to be all the more make eager to make our calling and election sure? And that if we add to our faith the qualities in 2 Peter 1:5-7, then we will never fall, will be kept from being ineffective and unproductive, and will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Believe me I'm not trying to be contentious here.

I accept and believe that it's the duty of the church and believers to preach security and assurance, simply because it's contained in the scripture (1 John and others). But for me, the conundrum and paradoxical nature of election and predestination remain.

Perhaps the deepest truths - being divine - have this character trait. If thats so, then I'm not deterred or discouraged by that. Take the entire book of 1 John for example. You can't claim to be without sin, there is provision if you do sin, yet you can't keep on sinning (not that you would want to - I don't), and furthermore: "But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."

When I read 1 John in it's entirety my heart is encouraged and my whole spirit feels satiated. It's like the best thing I could ever read and I want to go where it says.

These things aren't illogical by any means, no absolutely not, yet neither can they fit neatly into anyones mind - at least this is what I think, my opinion. Absolutley incredible.

Maybe this is all I'm trying to say after all.

[ April 25, 2002, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Vine ]
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