Define Separation

I was considering starting a thread along these lines. I have scanned over differing statements by those who take it to another level than what I have been use to. So if I may, Justified, I'd like to ask the definition and view from differing denominations of Baptist. I am SBC and I have heard opinions from both sides of the spectrum, most centered on II Cor. 6:17. Thanks.

 

Don't you mean what do you think the Bible means by seperation?

Wisdom Seeker

I see you editted your question to include the Bible Justified. Well done.

[ July 26, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]

 

Unfortunately he means IFB view.

 

Oops! Sorry folks. Did I barge into an ongoing discussion/feud? I have no agenda. Just curious and trying to learn. Thanks.

 

Justified,

There's a forum policy against posting a username in the Post's topic.

Joshua

 

OK, I'll get into this a bit.
Paul said we are aliens in this world. The passage longshot mentioned (IICor. 6:17) plays into it.
Separation means we look to scripture for answers, not the world. The world has put it's stamp of approval on many things. To be separate is not to compromise with the world. What does scripture (God) say about it?
I will not argue specifics if that's what you're looking for. If you want to stay generally philosophic I may stay engaged.

 

I think separation and personal holiness coincide. It is going to be how one interprets what is being read in the scriptures and what one is convicted about.
For example i go to an IFB church that is very strict on their beliefs of separation, I do not necessarily hold the same beliefs but out of respect I try to honor how they feel.
For example they believe women should not wear pants. I make sure I always wera a modest dress to church or activity. I do wear pants and shorts at home but i respect their beliefs.
They believe rock music is wrong. I do not listen to much rock music anymore and i never listen to it while I am going to church. Now some may call me a hypocrit because of my double standards, I am just trying to be respectful.

 

Hi justified. If I am outwardly enthusiastic of baseball teams like the L.A. Dodgers, or the St. Louis Cardinals, I am called a baseball "fan." Yet, if I show the same enthusiasm for the Bible, I'm called a "fan-atic." Why? Because we are truly SEPERATED from the world who HATES us (John 17: 4).

John 15: 19, and John 17: 16 state plainly that we are NOT of this world. However, in John 17: 15 the LORD reveals that he WANTS us in this world - though we should not be partakers of it's evil. The world has it's gods (the god of money, the god of Enron power corruption, the god of Sports, the god of Mercedes Benz, etc). We are called to "seperate" from this world, yet we are also told that we are still "in the world. We are in the world, but not of it!

John 17: 4 illustrates that the true believer will be steeped in the WORD (the Bible) much like a stock market enthusiast who is steeped in his stock charts, or a baseball fan who is steeped in team statistics, and so on. Our passionate pursuit of truth in the Bible, is actually an "evidence" of a true salvation. Furthermore, John 17: 4 makes it clear that as we preach/teach and exhort USING THE BIBLE, that the many who hear us, will HATE us for it. Again - we see the seperation of the TRUE believer and the world (which, incidentally includes MANY so called Christians). Yes justified, there is seperation between a true believer and the world. Unfortunately, all too often, it is not very apparant what that difference is.

latterrain77

 

Dr. Bob,

I don’t think I could have said it better? And we wonder why others think of us as strange. Worse yet how many gladly take on a martyrs complex when other Christians question the things you mentioned. Is it always biblical separation we suffer from or just plain silliness?

Men like you are a breath of fresh air in IFB circles (except for your poor taste in football teams). If there were none left like you, I’d have already packed my bags and moved out of the circle.

Thanks,

Steve

 

Dr. Bob, that was a great post! It fits very well with what I was taught separation was. I've noticed that even many of those who preach and teach the separation are not always able to live by it and are left in a quandry of sorts. But, now that I've gone to the SBC, I'm seeing that separation isn't just outward, it's very much an inward thing.
B.T.

 

This is a good question, worth wrestling with as we are told to be in the world, but not of the world. Unless I misunderstand it, there's our separation--not to be "worldly". (Maybe I am being too simple, I welcome correction if I am missing the mark.)

Anyway, how exactly do we--be in the world and not of the world? There are definate obvious things we should do if we love Christ like reading/studying our Bibles and praying frequently/regularly (that I don't think the world does [I sure didn't before I was born again]).

But, what about all of the other actions/behavior/routines that we do day in and day out?

Especially when it comes to amusing ourselves--I struggle with this a lot because there are so many worldy amusements that are not Christ-like. A lot of stuff I sort of like to partake in sometimes, but am feeling more & more & more like I shouldn't take any part in many activities. I wonder if I am too worldly?

I'm not being sarcastic at all, it makes me sad that I have been a Christian for almost 8 years and haven't matured that much.

A question for others like me ... are we too worldly, have we compromised too much, are we luke warm & would we rather defend our rights to do what we want than to draw closer to Christ? Are we separate?

It's just that I've seen in myself and a lot of folks I've known who call ourselves "Christians" that we don't seem much different from the rest of the world. This is a heavy weight on my heart.

Struggling,
Dootles

 

Dear Struggling Dootles you said:

"This is a good question, worth wrestling with as we are told to be in the world, but not of the world...."

IT IS A GREAT QUESTION

Anyway, how exactly do we--be in the world and not of the world? There are definate obvious things we should do if we love Christ like reading/studying our Bibles and praying frequently/regularly (that I don't think the world does [I sure didn't before I was born again]).

I SUSPECT THAT IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT WE DO THAT COUNTS, BUT FIRST WHAT WE THINK AND DESIRE. YOU NOW JOHN'S ADMONITION: "LOVE NOT THE WORLD NOR THE THINGS OF THE WORLD FOR THE WORLD AND THE DESIRES THEREOF PASSES AWAY..." (bad paraphrase)
WE ARE IN A PROCESS OF BREAKING DOWN OF CUTTING AWAY AND THE ONE WHO IS DOING THIS WORK IS THE HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN US. UNTIL HE BREAKS US DOWN, AND HE WILL, BIT BY BIT, WE LIVE A LIFE OF RELIGIOUS TOM-FOOLERY FOR MANY YEARS UNTIL WE FIND OURSELVES IN A FIT CONDITION TO SUBMIT TO THE DESIRES OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD. OFTEN IT HAPPENS AFTER GREAT PERSONAL LOSS AND HUMILIATION, RESTORATION AND REFLECTION. IT TOOK THE LORD 30 YEARS FROM THE DAY THAT I RECEIVED CHRIST TO BRING ME TO THE PLACE WHERE HE COULD CONSECRATE ME. THEN I REALISED THAT ALL THAT TIME I WAS LIVING IN VARIOUS MEASURES OF FEVER ADDICTED TO THE THINGS OF THE WORLD: THIS THING AND THAT THING, GIVING IN TO SECRET DESIRES AND CRAVINGS AND COVETESNESS: THESE WORLDLY DESIRES WERE HELD ON TO WHILE FLIP FLOPPING TO SPIRITUAL WORKS, LIKE A FLICKERING CANDLE, A DOUBLE MINDED MAN (YOU KNOW WHAT JAMES SAYS ABOUT THIS CONDITION) 30 YEARS I SPENT IN THIS WILDERNESS UNTIL THE LORD SWEPT IT ALL AWAY EXCEPT FOR ESSENTIALS AND THEN I SAW WHAT JOHN MEANT. THEN THE FEVER PASSED AND THE LORD TOOK THE WEAKNESS FOR THE LUSTS AWAY. HE DID IT. BY HIS SPIRIT. THEN FOR THE FIRST TIME I KNEW WHAT IT MEANT TO BE 'BORN AGAIN' TO BE 'FREE IN CHRIST'

But, what about all of the other actions/behavior/routines that we do day in and day out?

Especially when it comes to amusing ourselves--I struggle with this a lot because there are so many worldy amusements that are not Christ-like. A lot of stuff I sort of like to partake in sometimes, but am feeling more & more & more like I shouldn't take any part in many activities. I wonder if I am too worldly?

-FREE TO 'LOVE NOT THE WORLD ETC'FREE THEN TO SEE THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORLD AND THE THINGS OF THE KINGDOM ARE SPIRITUAL WHICH ARE ACTIVITIES AND WAYS OF RELATING TTHERS WHICH ARE BOURNE IN HUMILITY AND OFTEN UNDER GREAT HUMILIATION. AND THE INWARD FOCUS BECOMES HIM AND HIS KINGDOM AND THE ACTIONS/BEHAVIOR/ROUTINES BECOME MORE FLUID, CREATIVE AND SELFLESS. MORE SENSITIVE TFFERING ONESELF TO THE SPIRIT'S LEADING WHICH RESULTS IN A SACRIFICE OF OUR TIME/SPEECH/WILLING LOSS OF INCOME IN ORDER TO ALLOW THE LORD TO BLESS OTHERS THROUGH US. THEN THE THINGS AND ACTIVITIES OF THE WORLD ARE NOT SO ATTRACTIVE ANYMORE. LESS AND LESS TIME IS SPENT IN THEIR PURSUIT WHEN ONE SEES THE INVISIBLE KINGDOM COMING AND THE PROSPECT OF OUR PREPARATION NOW IN THIS TIME OF GRACE TO BE OBEDIENT AND FOCUSSED ON "THY WILL BE DONE" SO AS NOT TO BE ASHAMED AS HIS APPEARING.

I'm not being sarcastic at all, it makes me sad that I have been a Christian for almost 8 years and haven't matured that much.

IT TOOK THE LORD 30 YEARS TO MOVE ME FULLY INTO HIS KINGDOM AND JUST BEGINING TO MATURE, BUT I HAVE ETERNITY AND REALLY I AM MOVING QUITE FAST AND WILL BE PREPARED FOR HIM WHEN HE APPEARS FINDING MY USEFUL SERVICE WHOLEHEARTEDLY, AND WHEN HE DOES APPEAR WE LOOK FORWARD TO THE REWARD OF BEING POSTED TO SOME REALLY TOUGH NEEDY NATION IN NEED OF GUIDANCE, EXAMPLE AND REORGANIZATION IN THE MILLENNIAL REIGN, AND AFTER THAT WORK IS DONE WE CAN GO AND REST WITH HIM IN THE NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH AND THE NEW JERUSALEM ETC.

A question for others like me ... are we too worldly, have we compromised too much, are we luke warm & would we rather defend our rights to do what we want than to draw closer to Christ? Are we separate?

YOU ARE RIGHT TO ASK SUCH GREAT QUESTIONS. THE ANSWER OF COURSE IS THAT TRUE SEPARATION IS ACCOMPLISHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT IN US. AND WHEN THIS HAPPENS THERE WILL BE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT

It's just that I've seen in myself and a lot of folks I've known who call ourselves "Christians" that we don't seem much different from the rest of the world. This is a heavy weight on my heart.

IT IS NOT AN EASY THING TO GIVE UP THE THINGS OF THE WORLD. I THINK THE TOUGHEST PART OF IT IS THE SENSE OF HUMILIATION WE SUFFER IN SO DOING. IT TAKES GETTING USED TO, BUT GIVES WAY TO FRUITFUL LIVING AND JOY, MY BROTHER. YOU ARE EVIDENTLY ON YOUR WAY BECAUSE YOU ASK THE QUESTION. OUR HEAVENLY FATHER WILL ANSWER YOU AND SATISFY YOU FULLY. IT MAY TAKE A WHILE, HOPEFULLY NOT AS LONG AND PAINFUL A WHILE AS IT HAS BEEN FOR ME, MOST BLESSED OF MEN. YET JUST AT THE THRESHOLD OF THE NEW LIFE AFTER 30 YEARS. JUST BEGINNING.
THE LORD BLESS YOU
Struggling,
Dootles

 

What follows is an attempt of scriptural justification in part about what I last said. I have amended the passages below to try to describe my practical spiritual experience of ‘separation’ from the world. My comments are found in brackets [ ] -Woody

Romans 10

The Word of Faith Brings Salvation

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

[here he is speaking about the Jews, and for us any Christian who is seeking to live the life of faith in the works of the flesh]2

For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing abou God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[those who seek to live by terms of the law i.e. tithers etc and many of these are our believing friends who have fallen back into the ways of religious flesh i.e. carnality]

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

[this is the freedom I spoke about]


For the Scripture says, " WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [the Spirit of God will perform his perfect work in you in time for we live in the age of grace. He will do it. Trust Him for that separation from the world which is real and true and unafraid, non compulsive not full of rules but full of godly desire]

1 Peter 1
A Living Hope, and a Sure Salvation

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as [NOTE] aliens,[this is US] scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, [NOTE] who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, [NOTE] by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through theresurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

NOTE [once we experience the fullness of this passage it is no struggle to realign our desires and ambitions. The world holds nothing of value for us, except for your responsibilities of love towards our families and their practical needs]

6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now (28) for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,

[the temptation is always to rejoin the world in ‘coming to terms’ with materialism, consumerism and legalism –to live a compromised Christian life, a religious life deeply compromised in the ways of the world and at war with the Spirit of God within]

7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; NOTE [Can't be this if we are inwardly compromised in our love of the world and of Christ. Can't be this if we are using Christ to justify our love of the world's ways. If we are doing this we are lukewarm christians. Once we embrace the ways of the kingdom of God we know where to find our heart’s treasure]

1 Peter 5
Serve God Willingly

1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight

[NOTE] not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness [there it is];

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time,
7 casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.
8 Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself (30) perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

Hope this is helpful. Love, Woody

 

Bluntly, I am totally stunned that these things are
issues in the Baptist churches. I attend a
Baptist-based synagogue, and while recogniz-
ing that we may be on the fringes of Baptist be-
liefs, the issues of separation from the world
are such things as dress modestly and approp-
riately for where you are going (women and
men), don't go where the Spirit of our God is
unwelcome unless it is with the goal of minis-
tering, don't go to movies or watch videos or TV
shows you could not sit and enjoy with our Lord,
and such things.

Number one, I had no idea that the Baptist
churches had so many beliefs that differred
from one B church to another, until I opened my
phone book to look for a B church to attend on
Wednesday nights. Nnumber two, when my
children attended the B school all that time, I
thought that the dress code was the school's,
not the church's.

Now, I am confused. I just left a church (in
late 1999) that kicked me out for wearing my
wedding band and refusing to continue to take
it off when I entered the church. They also took
isssue with the fact that I wore my watch on a
chain about my neck, because my wrist had
broken out and was not healing. They would
not allow women who were members to wear
pants or make-up. Participation in sports (as
spectators or players) was discouraged.

Am I, by looking for a Baptist church to go to
during the week, fallling right back into the same
things?

I will tell you: After I left that church, I was at
work one day, in a large downtown building. I
was at the reception desk in that large, marbled
office, when a man, whom I had never seen
before, walked in. He walked right up to my
desk and said, "You're a Christian, aren't you?"
He spilled out a sad story, then he asked me to
pray for him, and I did. He never asked for
money--just for prayer.

As he walked away, I surveyed my situation.
My hair was a shortish coif, I was wearing a nice
suit with pants, I had on make-up and jewlery,
and--horrors--I had on my wedding band. Now,
how did he know I was a believer? It was a les-
son not to be forgotten. It is not what I can do, in
my small, frail human way, which shows the
Spirit of our Living God to be in me; it is Him,
and Him alone, whose light shines out to others.

I am not suggesting that we dress in such a way
that He must fight a rising tide of inappropriate-
ness in order to be seen in us, because maybe
then, He is not there at al. But I am saying this:
Why add to the Book? Why make extra rules
that our God did not put in the Book? Were His
ideas not good enough, so we must perfect
them with our own ideas, thus improving on His
salvation?

 

Awesome posts, Dr. Bob and Abiyah...hit home with me

 

Bless you, Uhdom. I hope I was not offensive to anyone.

 

Woody,

I appreciate your taking time to help me with my "separation" questions/issues.

You are so right about it being the work of the Holy Spirit working out that separation of our hearts/minds from the world. I need to spend more time & energy in prayer asking Him to help me resist the temptations to watch ungodly movies etc.

Truely, he has worked out some things in me already, but I get a little discouraged with myself for wanting to take a part in things that are decidedly ungodly. For example a little while ago I wanted to rent the movie "Terminator" (I saw it in my pre-Christian years). I think I enjoy the suspense of the chase in the movie, but it is so violent(!!!) and I think not at all appropriate to be watching at this point. I couldn't find it at the rental store so I didn't see it (again), but I don't want even the desire to see movies like that.

Another example, that I think God has helped me overcome is reading the books from the "Left Behind" series. I'm not saying these books are ungodly, but the attitude of my heart was wrong in reading them.

I read them for pleasure, not for the theology, edification, or encouragement. The books are great cliff hangers (every chapter even), but it's been bothering me for a while to read them and I couldn't put my finger on why nor did I stop. And, I didn't let myself think about too much.

But, lately when I was a little over half way through "Remnant" when I occurred to me that what the heart of what will happen & what has been happening over history is people resisting God and dying into eternal separation for it. This is greatest trajedy that has ever existed (refusing to believe & love God and being forever separated from Him). And, it seems wrong to take pleasure in reading even a fictional book about that.

Anyway, they're just a few examples. I long for the day when we will be in His presence and these things won't even enter our minds anymore.

Thanks,
(sister) Dootles