Believing the word IS believing The Word

Chris Temple · Aug 11, 2001

Can anyone who denies the verbal, plenary perfection of the Bible be a true Christian?

Isa 55:11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Isa 66:2 “For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
“But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

Jer 23:29 “Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?
30 “Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who steal My words from each other.

Mk 7:6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

I Thess 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

I Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Rev. Joshua · Aug 11, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
Can anyone who denies the verbal, plenary perfection of the Bible be a true Christian?

Dunno, can anyone determine for anyone else whether or not they are a "true Christian?

Isa 55:11 So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

How does this mean that God is responsible for every word in the Bible and not simply for the Bible's message?

Isa 66:2 “For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.
“But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

OK, so be reverent before the Word of God. How does this mean that God is responsible for every word in Scripture?

Jer 23:29 “Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?
30 “Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the Lord, “who steal My words from each other.

Even if this passage meant explicitly The Bible (which is doubtful); the Bible can be mighty without being, verbatim, the words of God.

Mk 7:6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

A solemn reminder that we should all look to see where our biases are keeping us from hearing the radical nature of God's teachings. Again, this does not mean that God wrote every word of the Bible.

Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”

Amen, but see other comments above.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Not talking about the Bible, but even if it were you can believe in the Bible and have your life changed by it without believing it's the verbatim word of God.

John 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35 “The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36 “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.

You can learn about the authoritative teachings of Christ from the Bible without believing in plenary verbal inspiration.

John 8:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

True. Not talking about the Bible.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

How does this make every word of the Bible inspired by God?

I Thess 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

The Bible can do its work without being inspired verbatim.

I Pe 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Which was not even collected and certified until three hundred years after this was written.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

See the above comments.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ August 11, 2001: Message edited by: CJoshuaV ]

John Wells · Aug 11, 2001

Chris, my dear brother,

You have just opened thread number 167 for the inerrantists and errantists to do battle! But I'm with you and always will be brother.

Joshua, rip these apart:

For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1:21, NIV)

Peter said, "that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Pet. 1:20-21).

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16, NIV)

All Scripture is God-breathed . . . (2 Timothy 3:16, NIV)

Chris Temple · Aug 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Which was not even collected and certified until three hundred years after this was written. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certified??

I notice you did not answer my original question.

The Witness of the Spirit to the individual believer is paramount to true Christianity. When it comes to the security of the believer, the knowledge that one is truly saved, the internal Witness of the Spirit cannot be dismissed as inappropriate or unreliable. Jesus himself said, “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” John 14:16,17, 26, NKJV (Italics mine.)

Surely greater than evidential works is the witness to the believer of their own personal salvation, given to them by the indwelling Lord. This is sensitive ground, to be sure, and is not to be confused with Pentecostalism or Charismatic belief, but rather should be in line with the classic Protestant position, articulated by Calvin, of the witness of the Spirit.

In M. James Sawyer’s excellent paper, The Witness of the Spirit in the Protestant Tradition, he states, “God, the Reformers thundered, was not bound by men. The authority of His word was not vouchsafed by human authority. He himself took the initiative in assuring the believer of the shape and veracity of his Word. In so asserting, the Reformers challenged directly the pretentious assertions of late medieval Catholicism and contended that the Word of God has authority over the church, rather than the church having authority to declare what is the Word of God. Likewise, the Reformers declared that God the Holy Spirit witnessed directly to the heart of the believer giving assurance that that believer is in fact saved, regenerate and a child of God. Thus was born the doctrine known today as the Witness of the Spirit, or the Internal Testimony of the Holy Spirit”.

For any professing believer to argue that the Bible is not the perfect word of God, is to, in the view of the Reformers, have a shallow if not heretical view of the power of the Holy Spirit. According to Sawyer, Calvin believed that there was a dual testimony of the Spirit to the new believer. “John Calvin, the first theologian to develop the teaching of the witness of the Spirit, speaks at length of that witness under two separate headings, the immediate testimony of the Spirit to the heart of the individual that the Canon of Scripture is the Word of God, and the activity of the Spirit touching the hearts of men and women to give assurance of their new status before them as his children.”

This present writer has found this to be true in his own life. When I was saved at age 35, I had very little, if any, knowledge of Biblical salvation. I was raised in a Roman Catholic home and went to Catholic school for 9 years, but never heard the gospel message. I had passing knowledge of Christian principles, knew that Christ was The Second Person of the Holy Trinity, but that was it. When I became saved, two truths were immediately witnessed to me by the Holy Spirit: The Bible in its entirety is true, and I knew I was saved, because I knew, by the Spirit’s witness, that Christ was the Savior God.

This is attested to by Calvin, who expressly rejected any attempt to build a faith in the Scriptures upon evidence as an approach which amounted to “doing things backwards.” Instead, he rested all assurance upon the inward testimony of the Holy Spirit working on the heart of the believer. To Calvin, Scripture was “self-authenticated; hence, it is not right to subject it to proof or reasoning. And the certainty it deserves with us, it attains by the testimony of the Spirit.” He refrained from the necessity of any rational proofs since the majestic character of the Scriptures themselves displayed in the heart of the believer a certainty more convincing than any human argument. In our modern secular, post-Christian society, the need for Christian Apologetics is certainly required, but the truth of Christianity never rests on the legs of logical or historical evidence. The basis for the truth of Scripture is always the witness of Scripture to itself, being the God-breathed Word of God. The Holy Spirit convicts the new believer of the truth of Scripture; likewise the indwelling Spirit assures of salvation as well.

Sawyer writes: “The doctrine of salvation is developed at great length by Calvin in book three of the Institutes. It is here that one sees the pastoral heart of the Geneva reformer and the lengths to which he went to ground the believer’s salvation in the experience of the presence of God in his/her life. Calvin insists that assurance is of the essence of faith and a sine qua non of salvation. He assails those who would rob the believer of the immediate assurance of the presence of God and replace it with an assurance mediated by any so called evidences of grace which could be found in the life. In many places Calvin explicitly references the witness of the Spirit in the life of the believer, heaping scorn upon those who would deny the experiential aspect of His ministry or suspend assurance of salvation upon something other than the Spirit’s immediate witness”.

Inerrantists find themselves in the unenviable position of the Roman Catholic church, placing their opinions and human wisdom directly against the knowledge of God and the witness of the Holy Spirit.

Chris Temple · Aug 20, 2001

At the Biblical Studies Foundation (www.bible.org) they have the following Q&A:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Question: Do you have to believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God to be saved

Answer:

In a very general way, I think I can say that one could come to faith in Christ for salvation without believing in the inerrancy of the Word of God, but I am doubtful that one could stay that way for long. The disciples of our Lord did not understand most of what Jesus taught them initially (until after His resurrection — John 14:25-26; 16:12-13, etc.), but they certainly came to trust in His every Word. They came to fully believe that Jesus “had the words of eternal life” (John 6:68). They believed that Jesus was the full and final Word of God, who was the exact representation of God (Hebrews 1:1-3). His words were the final word, that men dare not neglect (Hebrews 2:1-3). If He was the Son of God as He claimed, how could any of His words not be true? If we cannot trust in His every word, then which of His words do we trust?

Now, what did our Lord have to say about “creation”? In Matthew 19:3-6 Jesus spoke to the issue of divorce by going back “to the beginning,” and this beginning is the creation account. Was Jesus wrong to think that Adam and Eve were real people, whom God had created? If so, then we must cast aside every word of His as unreliable. Jesus also referred to Sodom, and to Jonah, who was swallowed up by the fish and then returned to life, as well as to the days of Noah and the flood (Matthew 11:24; 12:39-41; 24:37-39). Was He wrong about these people? Were they part of another myth? If Jesus was wrong — the One who claimed to be “the Truth”, then how can He be “the Way,” and “the Life” (John 14:6)?

The Gospel hangs on the truth of the creation account. Paul says that man’s sinfulness can be traced back to the sin of one man, Adam. He argues that it was the sin of one man that corrupted the human race, and that it is by the righteousness of one man — Jesus Christ — that many can be saved from their sins (Romans 5:12-21). Cast out the creation as a myth and you cast out the gospel, as I see it.

This is not the only time Paul speaks of the creation, and of the fall. See also 1 Corinthians 11:8-9; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:13-15. The creation account is a crucial truth. And, we are clearly told, it is something we believe by faith (Hebrews 11:3).

Notice what the Bible makes of the creation account in these verses:

Genesis 1-2; 14:19-22; 15:4-6; 24:2-4

Exodus 20:8-11; 31:12-17

Deuteronomy 10:12-18; 11:11-17; 28:12, 23-24

Joshua 2:6-13

2 Samuel 22:6-18

2 Kings 19:14-19

1 Chronicles 16:26

Nehemiah 9:6

Job 38-39

Psalm 8; 19:1-6; 33:6-9; 89:11-12; 96:5; 102:23-28; 104:1-35;

107:23-31 (compare verse 29 with Matthew 8:26)

Psalm 121; 124:8; 134:3; 135:5-7; 136:1-9; 146:1-7; 147:7-9

Proverbs 3:19-20; 8:22-31; 30:1-4

Isaiah 37:14-20; 40:12-31; 42:5-9; 44:24-28; 45:8-12, 18; 48:12-16;

51:12-16; 65:17-25

Jeremiah 4:23-28;* 10:6-16; 32:16-19; 51:14-17

Jonah 1:9

Zechariah 12:1

Acts 4:24; 14:14-18; 17:24

Romans 1:18-25

1 Corinthians 8:4-6

Colossians 1:16-

Hebrews 1:10; 11:3

Revelation 4:11; 10:6; 14:7

Our Lord’s words are not only “the words of eternal life” (salvation), but the words by which we are sanctified (John 17:17). How can we be sanctified by an imperfect Word of God?

The psalmist surely looked at the Word of God (the Old Testament law, at this point) as the truth (Psalm 119). We are warned not to go beyond the Word, to embellish or to add to or take away from it (1 Corinthians 4:6; 2 Corinthians 2:17; 4:1-2; Revelation 22:19).

I think the Psalmist put is most plainly:

The words of the LORD are pure words; As silver tried in a furnace on the earth, refined seven times (Psalm 12:6).

I have been teaching the Word of God for about 30 years, and I’ve yet to find a text that failed the test of Psalm 12:6. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.bible.org/docs/qa/qa.asp?StudyID=377

Bob Landis · Aug 20, 2001

I can sum my opinion up in just a few words. If you do not believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, you might as well throw the Book in the garbage and go your own way. The reason being is that if it is not inerrant, that means God has to be a liar and a bungling fool. I myself would never ever try to match intelligence with the One who inspired the Bible. Why we think that we can interpret His word better than He can shows us of our own feeble mindedness. Why so many denominations and translations? We are using our self pride to interpret the scriptures instead of using prayer and meditation to ask God to teach us. In the end we will all be chastised for our sin of pride.

TomVols · Aug 21, 2001

It has been my experience that many who deny the verbal plenary inspiration of the Scriptures and their inerrancy also deny or eventually will deny the basic tenets of the gospel - namely, that Christ died for our sins and rose again. Therefore, I have a hard time swallowing someone saying they believe in Christ but deny the Scriptures which testified to His authority and vice versa. Of course, unbelievers rarely ever have a concept of inspiration or inerrancy once they come to faith in Christ. Or do they? They must have some confidence in the truthfulness of the Scriptural gospel, or else why would they repent and believe?
Whenever this question comes up, I cannot help but think of folks like Crawford Toy, et.al., who start at basic denials of a truth here or a truth there, and eventually wind up sliding far off the scale. Am I alone?

[ August 21, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

Pastor KevinR · Aug 21, 2001

I hope the is a good analogy. The Bible is like a map, it leads to a destination. Who wants a map full of mere opinions and errors?A map that is not reliable leads to shipwreck.The map must be accurate in every detail in order to be trustworthy. Albeit there are maps that are not accurate, and there are some who question the accuracy of God's "inerrant map", only believing this "map" as far as their logic and human reasoning is concerned.
Next time I drive from NYC to Louisville, I will question whether the map is right when it says to take I-95 or I-81, etc. I'm being silly, we must trust the map to reach our destination!

John Wells · Aug 21, 2001

Great job by some of my favorite posters!

Peter said, "that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Pet. 1:20-21).

That says it all, pure and simple. I suspect that those who pick apart "untruths" or "myths" from God's Word do so for their own convenience in areas of their life where they are "conformed to the world." That explains why those who support homosexuality and abortion must take a biblical errancy stand.

I'll go one step farther. Theisitic evolutionists claim errancy of scriptures, or at least take such a liberal interpretation that it's plain hysterical, to support their "conformity to the world" in matters of science. Probably, a close inspection of their personal lives would reveal other areas of conformity with the world. No one's perfect. We're all guilty of some degree of conformity, but it would be interesting to learn more about theistic evolutionist's beliefs in other areas and about their lifestyle choices. Why do I say this? Because if a person rationalizes their way around one area of God's Word, chances are extemely high they'll do it in more than one area.

Chris Temple · Aug 21, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
Am I alone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. We are with you, brother.

Rev. Joshua · Aug 21, 2001

The Bible does not have to be inerrant or perfect in some "verbal plenary" sense to be authoritative and instructive. Likewise, many of the older maps which sailors used quite successfully to navigate also carried artistic embellishments and fanciful images in the margins or other places that weren't key to navigation.

Amusingly, on the Discovery Channel on Saturday, the Great Ships episode was about navigation. When Phillip the Navigator (or is that Henry?) of Portugal founded his navigation school, all of the maps "put theology ahead of geography" offering the Church's current interpretation of the location of the Garden of Eden, etc. It was only after the theology was taken out that they became reliable.

It's interesting that so many people gripe about how we liberals rationalize our way out of the tough scriptures. Ironically, when the "turn the other cheek" passage came up, everyone on that thread declared that this text is not intended to be taken literally. Personally, I believe that is a rationalization. I think Jesus really meant what he said, and that it's one of the areas where we all (including me - a former paratrooper) fail him. Likewise the texts on wealth and gathering into barns.

Some of the most committed churches I've ever seen are liberal, Alliance of Baptist Churches. Their members are out in their communities genuinely working for the gospel of Christ. (The quintessential example of this is the Church of the Savior in D.C.)

Joshua

Pastor KevinR · Aug 21, 2001

Joshua, Thanx for your post. The bottom line of my "map analogy" is, do we trust completely what we have or not? I acknowledge that it takes faith to do so. Hank Hanegraaf uses this acronym;
M Manuscript Evidence-The Bible has stronger MSS support than any other work of classical literature-including Homer,Plato,Aristotle, or Ceasar.
A Archaeology-Secular scholars are revising their biblical criticisms in light of new archaeological discoveries.
P Prophecy- Sciptures record hundreds of prophecies that could not be known or predicted by mere chance or common sense.
S Statistics- The Bible was written over a space of 1600 years, by 40 human authors (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit), in three languages....Statistical probability is a powerful proof that Scripture is Divine... (these are not exact quotes). Joshua, or anyone, I appreciate a reply.

Rev. Joshua · Aug 21, 2001

Trusting it completely is not the same as believeing that God wrote every word of it.

Joshua

John Wells · Aug 21, 2001

Tom, count me with you all the way!

Joshua,

Why on earth would you trust completely in something you believe is not without error? I would never. The only thing I can conclude about people who think like that and say things like that is that Satan has a pretty good grip on your mind, because it makes absolutely no sense.

Rev. Joshua · Aug 21, 2001

Wells, I feel confident that my mind is in decent working order and that it is completely in the hands of God. If salvation combined with regular prayer and Bible study are not sufficient to keep Satan at bay, I don't know what is.

As to requiring that something be inerrant to be trustworthy, I take it that you don't trust history textbooks because of the possibility that they might contain the authors' biases or small factual inconsistencies?

Joshua

TomVols · Aug 21, 2001

Joshua wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The Bible does not have to be inerrant or perfect in some "verbal plenary" sense to be authoritative and instructive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a question or two: if the words of the Bible are not inspired, then why should they carry any authority whatsoever? Why should they carry any didactic power at all?

TomVols · Aug 21, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CJoshuaV:
Wells, I feel confident that my mind is in decent working order and that it is completely in the hands of God. If salvation combined with regular prayer and Bible study are not sufficient to keep Satan at bay, I don't know what is.

As to requiring that something be inerrant to be trustworthy, I take it that you don't trust history textbooks because of the possibility that they might contain the authors' biases or small factual inconsistencies?

Joshua<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Truthfully Joshua, I've never read a history textbook that claimed divine inspiration or inerrancy. So your comparison is illogical, but I see where you were trying to go.

And as for your mind being in decent and working order............oh, the statements which come to mind! You really opened the door there friend!

Rev. Joshua · Aug 21, 2001

Tom,

This takes us down the same old road, I'm afraid.

The question wasn't about inerrancy. The question was whether or not I'm crazy for something I don't believe was, in its entirety and every detail, composed by the hand of God. As to the line between inspiration and inerrancy, I believe the Bible claims the former not the latter. I do not believe that the former requires the latter.

Regarding my mind, well, ahem...

Joshua

TomVols · Aug 21, 2001

Joshua,
You're right about the "same old road." I do believe that the Bible does claim both inspiration and inerrancy. And I reallybelieve that your mind is......

Just having fun with you null

Rev. Joshua · Aug 21, 2001

Tom. Drop me an e-mail and I'll give you some more info on dulcimers.

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