The KJV is sufficient for me

Brian G said:

the man with two running watches is still unsure.

I know Brian was speaking tongue-in-cheek when he said this, but it's pretty much what Ps104 said in all seriousness.

So, in all seriousness, I seriously answer: so what? What practical difference does it make to my daily life whether it is 1:02 pm or 1:04? None. The one-watch-two-watch slogan "preaches" well to the KJV crowd, but in the end it really doesn't prove anything.

 

toolman,
I am not trying to attack the KJV, or say that the Bible is not neccessary for salvation, just that your position statement earlier in the thread sounded dangerously close to the belief that Salvation only comes from the KJV.

The KJV is a very good translation, and it is the one I use for most things, but My faith doesn't have to be based on one version. Praise the Lord he has preserved his word for us. The 2% difference between all the texts available and the fact that the most common modern versions do not differ in their statements of basic truths and doctrines show me that yes the Word of God has been preserved. I can pick up two or three different versions and trust that I am looking at the original intent of the Author, and there are places in all the versions that perhaps a better wording or more clear translation could have been emplaced, why do you think all intelectually honest preachers take the original languages! (Oops, Dr. C is going to give me some time in the penalty box for that ) They recognize the nature of translation and the fact that it lends itself to lack of clear communication. There are complexities of the original languages that are not adequately communicated in many cases by a simple literal translation of the word meanings.

Obviously, the truth at some point in my example of a bum on the street goes back to the Bible. But I am trying to show that the actual meaning of the truths of Scripture are neccessary for salvation, Philip used Isaiah, Some people use the Roman's Road, Some people get into a program like Netcasters, but in all cases, the truth of God's Word is communicated. I am saying that the direct quotation of scripture is not neccessary, and the truth of salvation can be gleaned from several modern versions without much study at all, and can be presented to a person in paraphrase, and they can accept the truth of Jesus Christ and be saved. I am not removing the Bible from the picture, just placing more importance on the actual truth contained in scripture than the words of whatever version the words happen to be in.

I am not trying to cause trouble, and after a couple clarifying posts, you have more clearly stated your position and seem to have explained your views in a manner that is more open and less given to "button pushing" A problem that seems prevalant in this discussion on both sides. Thanks

Dave

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


A man with one watch is sure of the time in his own mind; unless he has set it by The Time Standard, he does not know if it is accurate or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good response Chris!

 

Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou
mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day
that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had
made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the
garden?

God and Satan both told Adam and Eve the "SAME THING".

"You can eat of ever tree in the Garden, only One is excluded".


If God and Satan said the "SAME THING", then why did "Adam and Eve" sin in following
Satan's advise???


If you'll read this "very careful" you'll see that it's not "WHAT" was said, but "HOW" it was
said that cause the downfall.


Modern Bible all have "God's word", and say the same thing, Don't they??


Both God and Satan said the same thing, you can eat of all the trees except one, but the manner
in which Satan "twisted" God's words cause Adam and Eve to be deceived into a train of
thought that led to their sin, rather than salvation.


It's not only "WHAT'S SAID", but "HOW IT'S SAID" that teaches one to "think like God",
saying the same thing isn't enough, it must be said in such a manner as to led the person to God
and greater knowledge.

God's words reminds you of "your freedom", while Satan's words remind you of "your
limitations", and that "freedom" I don't find in any Bible except the KJ.

 

&lt; God's words reminds you of "your freedom", while Satan's words remind you of "your
limitations", and that "freedom" I don't find in any Bible except the KJ. &gt;

Interesting prognosis here... Is it God, or is it Satan, that promotes freedom among many Bible translations? And which is it that promotes a limitation to ONE translation?

 

It is unfortunate, S., that you stopped your quote. If you had considered the whole context, you would know why it was sin for Adam and Eve to listen to Satan. God said not to; they would die. Satan said God was lying; you shall not surely die.

It had nothing to do with how it was said. It had everything to do with the lie of Satan.

BTW, God and Satan did not say the same thing, unless you are saying that things that are different can be the same. They communicated the same essential message (God in a command and Satan in a question).

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
... He has preserved the KJB, perfect, without error, for us who believe to fight the battle with a sward of the finest steel.
... Then there are those , like myself, who believe that God would, could and ,Indeed, DID, preserve His perfect word, just as He said He would. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here we go again with an oft asked and equally oft ignored question: Where does Scripture identify the KJV as this "perfect" Bible?"

Why do you not answer this simple question? You are so convinced of something that you have yet to produce one verse for. Surely it must be easy for you to prove this from Scripture. Please do so.

 

&lt; If a person claims to be "saved" and does not feel the above mentioned desires then, I believe, that person has good reason to question whether or not He/She is truly saved. &gt;

Mullins, show the scripture that says a person is going to "feel" such desires. What I am inclined to question is people being convinced of the truth of a doctrine-- salvation and 'KJVO' for just 2 examples-- because they FEEL that it's true.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rockfort:
[QBMullins, show the scripture that says a person is going to "feel" such desires. What I am inclined to question is people being convinced of the truth of a doctrine-- salvation and 'KJVO' for just 2 examples-- because they FEEL that it's true.[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have a "feeling" that when I was saved, I knew it, my wife knew it...[bunch of gibberish that says, "If I feel it it has to be true."]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There would exist no such thing as sin if what we feel is right actually is right in the eyes of God. That's why feelings are not to be trusted as a guide to what is true. I asked for scripture to show such your claim is correct, and the only thing you can do is say "I knew it...."

&lt; Keep your eyes and ears open Rockfort. &gt;

Keep your trap closed, Mullins.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
Keep your eyes and ears open Rockfort.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Alex, my eyes and ears are open waiting for you to simply post the Scripture on which you base this position. It is a simple question ... won't take much of your time.

Which verse is it that identifies the KJV as the perfect Word of God?

Your previous post to Rockfort is a mixture of good feelings ... but bad theology and bad exegesis. Please provide an verse for this dogmatic position that you are holding.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


Here we go again with an oft asked and equally oft ignored question: Where does Scripture identify the KJV as this "perfect" Bible?"

Why do you not answer this simple question? You are so convinced of something that you have yet to produce one verse for. Surely it must be easy for you to prove this from Scripture. Please do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've been arguing that one Bible is as good as the next, especially where the NIV and KJV is concerned, but let me show you "just one instance" where the NIV has it so wrong that you could never understand the proper sequence of Bible prophecy.

Notice the "day of Christ" and the "day of the lord".


NIV
2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report
or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the "DAY OF THE LORD" has
already come.

KJV
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by
word, nor by letter as from us, as that the "DAY OF CHRIST" is at hand.

Paul was referring to the "Rapture" in these verses.

There are "three days" in which Judgment will be passed on the world.

The First is the "Day of Christ", also known as the "Rapture", it occurs immediately prior
to the tribulations, a Judgment between the "Church" and world is made.

Second, the "Day of the Lord", this is when Jesus's foot touches Mt Olives at the end of
tribulations, Jesus orders his angels to separate the "wheat and tares" before the
"Millennium Reign starts, a Second Judgment.

Third, the "Day of God", better known as the "Great White Throne Judgment", the Third
and final Judgment.

The NIV writers did not distinguish between the "Day of the Lord" and the "Day of
Christ", and "NEITHER WOULD THE READER".

That "small mistake" would never reveal the "proper sequence" of events and leave the
reader in total confusion, believing the "Day of Christ" and "Day of the Lord" was the "same day", never revealing one occurs "before" Tribulation and the other "After".

Is it any wonder so many "faults Doctrines" are being taught today, not when you consider
what they are reading.

"Faults bibles breed faults doctrine".

This is just one of the many mistakes in the NIV, and as you see, it isn't written with the "precision" necessary to teach "correct doctrine".

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Mullins:
Rockfort, I have a "feeling" ...
Likewise. I have a good feeling based upon Psalms 12: 6 - 7, Luke 21:33, and others that God would, could and did preserve His word perfect for me in my language to use today ... God did not write 150 bibles. I have a "feeling" I know who did. It was satan himself, .... I have a "feeling" he did it to confuse, confound, weaken, pervert and make less effective, God's precious word...I have a "feeling" that we live in a time when we need to keep our eyes and ears open...

I guess I would need you to prove to me that God was incapable of preserving His word for me, perfect in every detail, just as He promised He would. I would also need proof ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alex:

Don't you think its even a little incosistent for you to base your beliefs on subjective feelings, and demand objective proof from your opposition?

 

S. Baptist:

Do you want to argue eschatology or Bible versions?

In the first place, your argument is incorreect, as the Anglicans who translated the KJV were mostly, if not all amillennialists , seeing no difference between the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ (which there isn't btw )

Secondly, the NASB was translated by mostly premillennialists, and has been criticized by some Reformed brethren for being too much so

If you wish to discuss eschatology, take it to the Theology board!

 

S. Baptist,

It is amazing howe incapable of reading and answering the question you are. The question had nothing to do with a textual variant in 2 Thess 2:2. The question was Which verse identifies the KJV as the perfect Word of God?

Why are you so afraid to answer this question? Why don't you just quote the verse where God (not you) says that the KJV is the perfect version? Why do you want to change the subject and talk about something else when this is so easy? You quote my question and then launch into a discussion of a verse that is wholly unrelated to the question, and a verse of which you have demonstrated no understanding.

Again, please list the verse ... just give the reference (it will be easier yet) ... where the KJV is identified as the perfect Word of God.

S., this is really a simple task. It requires very little. Just do it.

[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Alex Mullins,
Yes, my reply was directly to toolman for his implication of the KJV being his basis of faith.

I believe in the Verbal Plenary inspiration of God's Word in the original languages, and I believe that is why it is important not to hang your hat on one specific version or translation as "the only"

Every good solid fundamental Bible Preacher that I respect, and there are many, have believed in the importance of learning to study the scriptures in languages that the earliest and best manuscripts are written in, and for good reason.

I love the KJV, I use it daily, but I do not declare it to be the only english translation that is perfect, holy, without error, standing alone against satan's onslaught, or whatever other garbage the KJVO's dream up.

It contains copyist errors, omissions, extrabiblical writings, and mistakenly emplaced marginal notations, just like the rest of the English Translations. I am not saying that you toss those out, I am saying that to be honest, you have to at least say, "not all manuscripts contain this verse" or some other caveat. That is in most cases what I have found the NIV to do where people on this board have said they omitted a verse. It is usually in the footnotes with the reasons why. The NASB same thing, although less frequently. The KJV is the best English Translation that I use, and even that is a matter of opinion, but it is by no means the only way of Salvation. Even the KJV denounces that position, since I think it contains the Verse, "I am the Way"! Or was that my NAS

My reply to toolman was not to argue many of these things, which I am by no means an expert in, but to make sure he was not saying Salvation is by faith in Christ only as revealed by the KJV. I would not even think such a though except it were made prominent by some members of the KJVO ranks. My faith is in the completed work of Jesus Christ, revealed to me by the Word of God, preached to me out of the King James version. But to rely on the King James for my salvation makes me no better than the Pharisees. A legalist of the worst sort. IT puts my focus in the wrong place. The Pharisees were more concerned with

In his follow up posts, he seems to have backed off the rhetoric a little, and made his position more clear. I think he just got a little carried away. No problem, I have been known to do the same.

OH, and by the way, I did notice the reference to growing in spiritual maturity and how that would push me toward the KJV. That is one of the big pitfalls of your position. It lends itself wholeheartedly to phariseeism. Let me try not to shout this. You are not more spiritual than anyone just because you choose to use the KJV and no other. As a matter of fact, the more study I do, and the more Godly counsel I obtain, the less I embrace the KJV as the "only", something I used to take for granted. To suggest otherwise is just a little on the Haughty side of things if you ask me. When you equate any outward manifestation as being equal to spirituality, you overlook so much scripture, it is beyond comprehension. Even in the KJV. Stop thumping it and start reading it.

At least when someone like Dr. Cassidy supports the KJV, he does it because he has studied and obtained degrees in the original languages, and has studied the textual evidence of the Bible, and has come to the conclusion that the KJV is the best. That is an acceptable and tenable position, but to say that no we don't need to do that, we can just rely on the Anglican Church's Bible from 400 odd years ago without bothering to be certain that it is correct by looking at the texual evidence, some of which was used by the translators of the KJV, and some which they did not have, is as ridiculous as it is prideful. How you could equate learning the original languages and studying the foundations of the KJV with a lack of faith is beyond me.

 

Alex Mullins said:

Once saved, a person should be a seeker of the truth. The Holy Spirit, living within, will guide you to the truth.

You will come to believe that the God who breathed you into existance and wants you to be prepared for battle would want nothing but the very best for you, and that is why He has preserved the KJB,

This is a claim to theological truth. Theological claims require Scriptural proof. Kindly cough up. Thank you.

Then there are those , like myself, who believe that God would, could and ,Indeed, DID, preserve His perfect word, just as He said He would.

Untrue. KJV-onlyists believe that God would, could, and, Indeed, DID, preserve His perfect word, just as He didn't say He would. At least, I've never found a statement to the effect that the "KJV is the one true English Bible" anywhere in my KJV!

When you abandon the principle of sola scriptura, you are open to believing any old thing. How is KJV-onlyism different in kind from Mariolatry? They aren't except in the object of belief.

So, on this issue we have these two camps duking it out, us KJV'ers wasting precious time defending this presious word as we have done for 2000 years

If it's such a waste of time for you, quit.

Again, you will believe, that we do not have the perfect word today,

No, I simply believe that the KJV-onlyists are merely making unprovable, unscriptural claims about how we have the perfect word today.

If they are not using the pure word, the preserved, time-tested King James Version, they are using inferior, flawed and faulty ammunition.

I have never met a KJV-onlyist who knew the first thing about rightly dividing the word of truth. Compared to the clumsy way the KJV crowd handles its weapon, my NASB is a 350mm Howitzer.

I'll put my flawed and faulty ammunition up against your "sword" any day.

 

Alex Mullins said:

Rockfort, I have a "feeling" that when I was saved, I knew it. . . .

Likewise. I have a good feeling based upon Psalms 12: 6 - 7, Luke 21:33, and others that God would, could and did preserve His word perfect for me in my language to use today, knowing with full assurance that He wrote it and I can trust every word.

Apparently, Alex would have us believe that since his subjective feelings about his personal experience are validation of the experience, that these same subjective feelings ought to be treated as authoritative when it comes to questions of objective fact.

Wrong.

In any case, I feel that the KJV-only position is a hilarious load of nonsense, and I will trust my feelings over someone else's any day.

[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

Folks:

I really think this thread has been wrung out of all possible juice. Please take one or two ideas of value and start new, fresh threads. I'm gonna close this one. Thanks.