Baptists are Sabbath Breakers

Romans 14:5 and Colossians 2:16, bud.

 

Cynic:

heard those verses all my life. But where do they clearly teach we as Christians can toss out the Sabbath. God hallowed that day from the very beginning.
Is it no longer a hallowed day to God?

Packerbacker has asked a legitimate question that you have "bubbed" off.
Any other of the 10 commandments we allowed to just completely ignore and even teach our children to ignore? Can you give me any Biblical evidence (not tradition mind you)that states we can ignore the Sabbath?

paul
fob (friend of bub)

 

Jesus Christ IS the Sabbath.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos-sabbath keeping)) to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

HankD

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

The Christian community as a whole does not keep the Sabbath because it was a part of the legal requirements of the Law, and according to the New Testament the Christian today is not under such legal requirements like circumcision, Sabbath keeping, even tithing. Instead, we are to produce the righteousness of the Law, the character of Christ, through the Spirit (see Rom. 6:14; 7:1-8:13; 2 Cor. 3:4-18; Gal. 3-5).

Further, there are no commandments or exhortations in the New Testament for us to keep the Sabbath. Rather, the early church gathered on the first day of the week in celebration and remembrance of the resurrection. This is evident throughout the book of Acts (cf. also 1 Cor. 16:2 and Acts 20:7). Acts 20:7 is the clearest verse in the New Testament which indicates that Sunday was the normal meeting day of the apostolic church. Paul stayed in Troas for seven days (v. 6) and the church met on the first day of the week.

The Ten Commandments show us our failure, sinfulness and need of the Savior. It is impossible for anyone to keep them (see 1 Tim. 1:8f; Rom. 7:1f; 2 Cor. 3:6f; Gal. 3:10; 5:1f). Never in the NT epistles are believers told to keep the letter of the law, but rather through our new life in Christ and the ministry of the Spirit, we are to produce the righteousness of the law, i.e., the spirit of the law-its moral character in the sense of love for God and for others (see Matt. 22:34-40; Rom. 8:1-4). Thus, we are not under the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.

Historically, the early church assembled for fellowship and worship on the first day of the week, Sunday, not on the Sabbath. Likewise, in the epistles (after Pentecost) we are never told to tithe, but to give as we are prospered from a willing heart. The focus and emphasis of the NT epistles (those books written to guide the church, the body of Christ) is on learning to walk by the control or leading of the Spirit rather than by a set of legal commands.

Are the Sabbath laws binding on Christians today?

We believe the Old Testament regulations governing Sabbath observances are ceremonial, not moral, aspects of the law. As such, they are no longer in force, but have passed away along with the sacrificial system, the Levitical priesthood, and all other aspects of Moses' law that prefigured Christ. Here are the reasons we hold this view.

In Colossians 2:16-17, Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jewish calendar (cf. 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 31:3; Ezekiel 45:17; Hosea 2:11). If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of festivals and new moons.
The Sabbath was the sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14). Since we are now under the New Covenant (Hebrews 8), we are no longer required to observe the sign of the Mosaic Covenant.
The New Testament never commands Christians to observe the Sabbath. In our only glimpse of an early church worship service in the New Testament, the church met on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

Nowhere in the Old Testament are the Gentile nations commanded to observe the Sabbath or condemned for failing to do so. That is certainly strange if Sabbath observance were meant to be an eternal moral principle.
There is no evidence in the Bible of anyone keeping the Sabbath before the time of Moses, nor are there any commands in the Bible to keep the Sabbath before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.
When the Apostles met at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15), they did not impose Sabbath keeping on the Gentile believers. The apostle Paul warned the Gentiles about many different sins in his epistles, but breaking the Sabbath was never one of them.
In Galatians 4:10-11, Paul rebukes the Galatians for thinking God expected them to observe special days (including the Sabbath). In Romans 14:5, Paul forbids those who observe the Sabbath (these were no doubt Jewish believers) to condemn those who do not (Gentile believers).

The early church fathers, from Ignatius to Augustine, taught that the Old Testament Sabbath had been abolished and that the first day of the week (Sunday) was the day when Christians should meet for worship (contrary to the claim of many seventh-day sabbatarians who claim that Sunday worship was not instituted until the fourth century).
Sunday has not replaced Saturday as the Sabbath. Rather the Lord's Day is a time when believers gather to commemorate His resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week. Every day to the believer is one of Sabbath rest, since we have ceased from our spiritual labor and are resting in the salvation of the Lord (Hebrews 4:9-11).

So while we still follow the pattern of designating one day of the week a day for the Lord's people to gather in worship, we do not refer to this as "the Sabbath."

John Calvin took a similar position. He wrote,
There were three reasons for giving this [fourth] commandment: First, with the seventh day of rest the Lord wished to give to the people of Israel an image of spiritual rest, whereby believers must cease from their own works in order to let the Lord work in them. Secondly, he wished that there be an established day in which believers might assemble in order to hear his Law and worship him. Thirdly, he willed that one day of rest be granted to servants and to those who live under the power of others so that they might have a relaxation from their labor. The latter, however, is rather an inferred than a principal reason.

As to the first reason, there is no doubt that it ceased in Christ; because he is the truth by the presence of which all images vanish. He is the reality at whose advent all shadows are abandoned. Hence St. Paul (Col. 2:17) affirms that the sabbath has been a shadow of a reality yet to be. And he declares elsewhere its truth when in the letter to the Romans, ch. 6:8, he teaches us that we are buried with Christ in order that by his death we may die to the corruption of our flesh. And this is not done in one day, but during all the course of our life, until altogether dead in our own selves, we may be filled with the life of God. Hence, superstitious observance of days must remain far from Christians.

The two last reasons, however, must not be numbered among the shadows of old. Rather, they are equally valid for all ages. Hence, though the sabbath is abrogated, it so happens among us that we still convene on certain days in order to hear the word of God, to break the [mystic] bread of the Supper, and to offer public prayers; and, moreover, in order that some relaxation from their toil be given to servants and workingmen. As our human weakness does not allow such assemblies to meet every day, the day observed by the Jews has been taken away (as a good device for eliminating superstition) and another day has been destined to this use. This was necessary for securing and maintaining order and peace in the Church.

As the truth therefore was given to the Jews under a figure, so to us on the contrary truth is shown without shadows in order, first of all, that we meditate all our life on a perpetual sabbath from our works so that the Lord may operate in us by his spirit; secondly, in order that we observe the legitimate order of the Church for listening to the word of God, for admin-istering the sacraments, and for public prayers; thirdly, in order that we do not oppress inhumanly with work those who are subject to us. [From Instruction in Faith, Calvin's own 1537 digest of the Institutes, sec. 8, "The Law of the Lord"].

 

In this neck of the woods their calling it “replacement theology”

 

Packer Backer,

The issue is a little different than you have presented. The Mosaic Law in the OT existed as a whole (Gal 5:3; James 2:10). It cannot be divided. It was the civil constitution of the nation of Israel. Christ is the end of the Law for those who believe (Rom 10:4). Paul says that we are no longer under the Law. In other words, the whole Law was abolished for NT believers.

The fact that those commands are repeated in the NT shows that certain aspects were instituted for the church. We do not follow those commands because they are a part of the ten commandments or the Law. We follow them because they are a part of the NT church teaching.

The verses listed above in Rom 14 and Col 2 would be contradictory under any other scheme.

The Sabbath issue is an interesting one. In creation, God set aside one day out of seven. The specific day was specified in the Law, which we are no longer under. I believe the principle for the Church is a "one in seven" principle.

[ December 27, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

< Thanks for the verses. >

Don't thank ME. I wasn't even around when they were written.

< The Sabbath is not a day that man “esteems” above another. >

Some do.

< You might also want to note that Paul does not mention the Sabbath in this passage in Romans. >

I suppose I 'might.' You might also want to note that man must be "convinced in his own mind." That is quite unlike any principle that applied to the man in Numbers who was executed for gathering firewood on the sabbath (and are you in favor of the same penalty?).

< The Sabbath is a day that God Himself has esteemed above others. >

And who himself said to be convinced in our own minds and to not judge or allow ourselves to be judged in regard to a sabbath day?

< I’ll admit that the passage in Colossians seems like a good answer, >

You ain't saying that just to make me feel good, are you?

< but there are a few questions considering the word Sabbath that is used there. >

No, I reckon you weren't.

< Is it talking about “The one and only Sabbath Day God commanded” or is it talking about “a” sabbath day, which people cease from activity, or is it referring to sabbaths such as the rest of the land after six years of use (Lev 25:1-7)? If he was referring to God’s fourth commandment, it seems strange that no other commandments are included in this list, but only those same “doubtful things” Paul mentioned in Roman’s 14. >

The words used are "sabbath day."

Now, I want to ask about a couple of situations I usually bring up when debating the sabbath dilemma. (1) If you are stationed in Antarctica, depending on your specific location, there will be days when the sun is never seen, and days (24 hour periods) when it does not cease to be seen. If you follow the biblical 'sunset-to-sunset' definition of a day, do you have 'sabbath days' that may last for months, and must you go for months without a sabbath day? (2) If you are on your own yacht cruising around the western Pacific very near 180 degrees longitude, can you choose whether you want the day, relative to you and your boat, to be the 'sabbath day' or not? After all, scripture does not tell us where the International Date Line is located. If it is almost 'sundown' on the 6th day, and you have a lot of work to do onboard, can you zoom across the Date Line so then it is the end of the sabbath, instead of the beginning? Then extend this scenario to flying on a jet, where you may not know which day it is... then to orbiting the earth in a spacecraft-- if you see the sun 'rise' and 'set' 7 times in a few hours, must you cease pressing buttons to control the environment of your existence ['working'] for a complete orbit?

In an ancient agrarian society, the sabbath assured laborers they would have a day of rest. If you extend this principle to all phases of living in the modern world, you come up with such situations as I showed above. The fact that the NT does not repeat the sabbath restrictions, and says to be convinced in one's own mind, was forward looking.

Incidentally, is the International Date Line--a man-made time/position/navigation tool-- the rule you would abide with to determine if you are within God's commandments?

 

If I may interject, and I'm not trying to speak for Pastor Larry, whom I agree completely with.

The 1 in 7 principal is that we should labor six days and rest from our labors one day. That one day of rest can be any day that your occupation and personal situation dictate. I, for one, am thankful that Christian EMS, emergency room personnel, etc. work on Saturday and Sunday. I also don't see anything wrong with going to a restaurant after church on Sunday. Thanks to some Christians who work in them and at gas stations on the weekend. I don't believe they are being unfaithful to God as long as they go to church as often as they can, and lead a good Bible reading and praying life. Their day of rest should be observed on whatever day off they have.

[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

Jesus Christ IS the Sabbath.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

<<Jesus was not talking about physical rest, which the Sabbath was given for. The rest He spoke of was “unto your souls.” Yes, the rest He gives man for their souls is light and easy (because He does the work) but He was not saying people would find physical rest through Him instead of the Sabbath>>

The sabbath rest from "works" is exactly what Jesus was speaking about and you defined it quite well if one leaves out the word "physical".

People would find rest through Him instead of the Sabbath.
But a different kind of rest.

This is why I included the Hebrews passage…

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest (sabbatismos-sabbath keeping) to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

If there REMAINETH a rest (SINGULAR)…, that means that all other kinds of "sabbath-keeping" are gone and one remains.

In fact an irony is used for people to "labour" to enter into that rest lest those people (Hebrews) be shown to be in a state of unbelief.

Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat…

<<I agree that He is Lord over the Sabbath and can heal people, allow His disciples to pick corn, have mercy on David, etc. Jesus is God, it’s His law, and He has a right to define it or grant mercy to His law. However, I do not see Jesus saying that the 4th commandment was abolished in this passage. Sure seems to me that His point was on mercy, similar to the example in Matthew 23:23. >>

In the Luke account Jesus precedes the corn-picking with the wine skin parable…

Luke 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The Old and New Covenants cannot be mixed. If you try, you will have neither.

Excerpts from Acts 15…

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they…

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:…

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Where is Sabbath-keeping here?

<<Those who enter God’s rest are not ones who are trying to do it by keeping the commandments but this passage does not say that the Sabbath should be the only one of the Ten Commandments that we ignore. >>

Even sabbatarians "ignore" the Sabbath law…
The Torah dictates the requirements of Sabbath keeping. Sabbatarians pick and choose which they will keep and their response of "legalism" to what follows will prove it.

Turning on a light.

2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Whenever a person turns on a light on the Sabbath (Friday sundown through Saturday sundown) he/she BREAKS the Sabbath. If you don't believe that a light bulb is a fire, grab and hold on to a lit one.

Either you keep it in every point or you don't.
Either verse three is part of the commandment or it is not.
What difference is there between the sabbath-keeper who picks and chooses and/or modifies the sabbath rules and the non-sabbath keeper?

No amount of apologetics can change this part of sabbath keeping.

What constitutes work?
Most sabbatarians pay their electric bills for WORK done by their appliances on the sabbath.
Appliances BURN electricity which comes from the BURNING of fossil fuels which happens (and they use) on the Sabbath.

<<but this passage does not say that the Sabbath should be the only one of the Ten Commandments that we ignore.>>

We all ignore other commandments as well…

4 Thou shalt not make (ASAH-to make or acquire) unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This is a two part commandment just as the tenth is a multi-part commandment, one part says not to make or acquire an image of ANYTHING. The other part says to not bow down to them, BOTH are forbidden by the Commandments. In fact we break both parts with the money that we use. On the back of a one dollar bill which is covered by enGRAVEN images is the symbol of the all-seeing eye of ISIS. We possess images of false gods in our wallets, purses and pockets.

15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place (wallet, pocket, purse). And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

…hands of a craftsman… Even if someone else makes it we are not to possess images of any kind.

13 Thou shalt not kill. " Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer '

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law to do them.

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PackerBacker:
The fact is that even though we are not under the Law for righteousness sake, the majority of Christians do try to obey the Law. Jesus said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments (John 14:15). Matter of fact, keeping the commandments is how John said that we know we know God (1 John 2:3,4).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"His commandments" in John do not refer to the OT Law. It refers to the standards of Christian living in the NT.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What puzzles the 7 Day Baptist and 7th day Adventist with our position is that we would never tell someone to take their liberty in Christ to the point of coveting, stealing, making an idol, etc but we teach that the Sabbath is not important. By our practice it seems that we have divided the Law and that it is not a whole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those sins have their roots other than in the Mosaic Law. We are not inconsistent because as I say, we do not "not do" those things because of the Mosaic Law; we do "not do" them because of their statements elsewhere.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why do we accept and incorporate the example of the believers on the 1st day and not incorporate the example they showed us on the Sabbath day? Hard to see how one is NT teaching and the other is not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps tradition more than anything. Some would associate it with the resurrection being on the first day and I am sympathetic to that. The pattern of the early church was to meet every day so I think we have fallen a bit short of that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Only if it is clear that these verses are dealing with 4th commandment. I mentioned this to CC further up the post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the verses are dealing with any special "set aside" days. There is no reason to exclude the Sabbath day from it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Interested in what the “one in seven” principle is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See John above. He said it well.