a question

Not an answer to your question, but perhaps something else to consider: the disciples wrote the Gospels after the fact. Perhaps it wasn't as clear cut as the narratives make it out to be. Just a thought.

 

Well, it was kind of a cryptic answer. And, Jesus was always using parables and illustrations. Add to that the disciples complete lack of understanding (according to the gospels).

 

The reason that the disciples did not understand was two fold.

First they did not understand the nature of the betrayal (Matthew 26:21-25 is a little clearer on this point).

Second the dipping of the sop was not immediately and probably not a noticeable action (John 13:21-28 is a little clearer on this point).

It is amazing that the Pharisees understood that Christ was going to rise from the dead better than the disciples. The Pharisees wanted to seal the tomb and the disciples did not believe that Christ rose from the dead (Matthew 27:62-66; Mark 16:9-14).

 

I find the story of Judas very interesting. When Satan entered into him Luke 22:3...and Christ referred to him as "Freind" Matt. 26:50 he recognized Satan. And why wouldn't he recognize Lucifer the light bearer who was one the angels in Heaven before he was cast out of Heaven. This was all preplanned.

Why didn't the deciples recognize Satan? Because he is a deceiver...and often people wil not recognize something that is right in front of their noses...even when it's pointed out to them. The truth (as I see it) is that often Jesus was plain and clear in what he said...But people will believe or not believe what they will...regardless.

 

I am not sure what you are saying here. WisdonSeeker are you saying that Judas became Satan or that he looked like Satan.

massdak
What is you take on the Pharisees wanting to seal the tomb?

[ December 13, 2002, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: 2peter1_10 ]

 

I think you will find that they did not have a lot of savy till the Holy Spirit came upon them at penticost. A lot of stuff made sense to them after that. Remember they were told several times that he was to be raised from the dead but that didn't get through their thick heads either.

 

First of all Massdak, you assume he let them ALL know. What he let them ALL know was that one of them would betray him. He said, "He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish..." That is an inclusive statement meaning that one of them having supper with him would betray him. This was a large group having a meal together as we all can relate to after Thnaksgiving dinner. Was there always one speaker and everyone listening. I don't think so. There were lulls in the conversation and times when several people were talking to each other at the same time. It seems that each one took an opportunity to ask Jesus if it was them. When Judas asked him that question there may not have been anyone else listening to the reply. One end of the table may have been having conversations totally different to the conversations going on at the other end of the table. When Jesus was addressing the group as a whole I am sure they all gave him their undivided attention but for the majority of the meal it was just like any other meal to the disciples.

 

Artimaeus totally agree. also....it was all according to Gods plan. Things happened at a specific time because some things could not be revealed until a certain time to allow a plan to take place.

More to think:

It was the same when Jesus took them to pray with Him, and forms were being taken on, and they just kept falling asleep. Jesus was trying to get them to pay attention to the details.

Why didn't they think it odd that Judas even left to go do anything. There was a feast going on. Why would you leave at this time to take care of business, or leave the fellowship with the Lord?

Was Judas shocked himself when He dipped his bread in the same dish with Jesus?

Why did Peter deny Jesus three times? Why 3?

Sherrie

 

I believe (more speculative so it has no real biblical authority as doctrine) that they were guarding against couple possible problems for themselves.

They most likely did not believe that Jesus was going to raise himself from the dead (or through the Holy Spirit). The sealed tomb guarded against the body being stolen.

They may have thought that it might happen. So, if the tomb was sealed Jesus would not be able to get out (or so they thought). Also, if he could not escape from the tomb after he was risen then they could just go in afterwards and kill him again.

Those are the two theories that I have heard about. Either way, they were trying to make sure that their position as leaders was protected (oh, the foolishness of men who reject God's truth).

 

Scripture is a complete revelation to us, but it was not to either the OT people or the disciples. It was progressive, and early Jewish thought was that Messiah would be a military leader. He would liberate Israel militarily, and Jerusalem would be resurrected in God's name.

Resurrection was n their thinking, but I am not certain they understood what it meant...a future life? The cross must have been a great disappointment to those disciples...they all scattered. Only two women cam to the tomb and not to see a resurrected Lord, but to perfume, as it were, the body of Jesus.....the stone is rolled away.....amazing! Who has stolen the body? All physical questions and thoughts.......Evidence of the resurrection made all the difference to the disciples, as it does to us. The resurrection is what gives us the hope of things to come.

Sometimes when Jesus did things directly and quite plainly, the disciples may have been astonished, but did they fully understand? Would you? Would I?

Sometimes I think we fail to appreciate how little information they had in biblical times. This happens to us now.......how someone 2000 years later can be better informed than one who lived in the first century. Hence all the different ideas that floated about then when they were nearest to the action.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Jim1999 - You are right it is hard to think of not being able to go to the store picking up a book or magazine on any subject that I want. There is a saying that I heard (I do not know who coined it).

The New Testament is in to Old Testament concealed. The Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed.

I think that with the limited knowledge that they had, I would be the same as them. God has blessed us greatly with so much information. Yet we still fail to understand many things that is clearly spoken of in the Bible.

 

A good question.
Matthew and Mark reveal that they had ALL dipped into the bowl with Jesus so Jesus' reply did not reveal the betrayer.
John tells that the identity of Judas was revealed to him when Jesus gave Judas the morsel.
He doesn't say if he shared this with the other disciples.
He may or may not have.

MR