"It is Finished!"

Pastor Larry said:

Obviously it is not, read the verse again... Then again read the whole chapter!... I've NEVER heard these two elections mentioned in any Primitive Baptist Church... Corporate/Personal election does not exist in the scriptures!... Must be a works doctrine that you other brethren believe!... Brother Glen

 

Adam did not have a corrupt nature when he was created. He could choose to serve God without any taint of sin. You and I do not have that option.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

Because something is not mentioned in a primitive baptist church (a minuscule slice of baptists, much less orthodox Christianity), that makes it non-existent???? Come now Glen ... This has nothign to do with works. However, I assume you know that and were kidding with your statement (if you were not, shame on you).

The corporate/personal election distinction is a common division in theology. See Moo (NICNT) and Schreiner (BECNT) for good discussion of this passage. Corporate election is used by some to refer to "election in Christ" or the elect as a body rather than individuals. That is not how it is used here. Here it refers to the fact that God chose (elected) Israel as a people above all the other nations of the earth. That is not personal election since not all Israel was saved. However, the point of the verse, is that Israel as a nation has not been cast off because of the promise God made to the fathers. Because of God's choice, they are loved because of the fathers.

How can you say this is personal election to salvation when clearly these people actively rejected Christ?? This is not someone who never heard. This is someone who actively rejected.

I seriously did not know there was anyone versed in these issues who did not accept this distinction. You learn something new everyday.

 

With Adam the nature to sin was passed. therefore we have this sin nature. with God, He imputed the original sin to everyone. and that imputation of the original sin by God Himself has been God's foremost reason to condemn everybody. it is even the reason why we sin. that is, man sin because he is spiritually dead, and not the other way around. why? because God caused it by imputing the original sin to man, and thus, spiritual death and condemnation. in fact the law was given to prove that we are condemend. Primitive Baptist, did you consider this fact? For indeed Calvin did, that is why he was able to conclude "double predestination." you talk about man in their natural condition, but who caused man to be in that natural state, being with an original sin?

i do not agree with double predestination, nor with electionists. but rather i see God's wonderful design in imputing the orginal sin to everyone so that upon condemning everybody, Christ can already die for everybody. thus, the issue of the original sin, sin nature, and personally committed sins of everyone is already over come salvation. what matters now is faith in Christ. in the end, God caused man to be condemned by imputing the original sin on him, but God solved it Himself by Christ's death on the cross, including all those sins which man caused for himself (God having imposed laws for man to see his condemnation by persnollay sinning). Now that is grace! Also, that is sovereignty, God having His way!

what is left to be accomplished to everyone is God's justification, which will come at faith.

[ July 03, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Aki ]

 

I assume you are referring to me although you didn't address it. I have not seen anyone slander any church. If I see it, I will edit it.

You have no argument here from me. But that is not the point. clearly sometimes it does have reference to eternal salvation, just as Rom 5:1 says that we have been justified by faith, so Rom 10: says that we are saved by faith.

[/qb]Because the verse you quoted clearly tied the harvest the going forth of laborers. Yet you say the harvest will come in without the laborers going. In fact, in your scheme, there is no need of laborers going because the elect are already saved. That is totally contrary to everything Scriptural example and teaching about the gospel.

I didn't say he gave us the work of reconciliation. I agree that he did the reconciling. Yet if you read 2 Cor 5:18-21, it is totally at odds with your position. Paul had a call from God to beg others to be reconciled, to share the ministry of reconciliation with others, and that call was inscripturated for us. Therefore, we are to preach the message of reconciliation as ambassadors of God and beg people to be reconciled. Nowhere in Scripture do you see any called to recognize their reconciliation that has already taken place. That simply is not there.

That is not what the verse says. It says they are condemned because they have not believed. Again, the issue becomes one of authority. Do we accept what the text of Scripture says or do we assert our own systems as authority over it. Your position makes a lot of sense in a lot of areas. Were it not for the text of inspired Scripture, you could make a believer of me very clearly. The problem is the text of Scripture. It simply does not reconcile with your position.

Rom 5, 1 Cor 15.

 

I don't disagree with that at all. I firmly affirm it ... ( ). However, you and I are saying different things I think. I am saying that the reaping is necessary ... that the laborers do go out into the harvest and the harvest is the saving of souls. Men do not save nor secure. They reap where someone else has sown. But until such time as the God given faith is exercised, a person cannot be said to be justified or born again.

 

The message is the fact. I agree about regeneration but that is not the issue. The issue is, Is faith a necessary part of justification and salvation. According to Scripture, it is. That faith is the gift of God and apart from God man is incapable of exercising that faith. On the elect can believe and it is only after the sovereign work of God on the heart. But that sovereign work of God will not happen apart from the word of God being communicated.

 

You remember the woman with the 'issue of blood.' God responded by saying, 'My faith hath made you whole.' (I don't think so) What Jesus did say was 'Thy faith hath made you whole.'
It is our human response to God's call to salvation, called faith, that makes us a 'new creation in Christ Jesus.' God does not infuse us with faith coming from Him; we reach out in faith/trust toward He who is able to heal the sinners darkened life.

 

Primitive Baptist said:

... That among other reasons was the cause of the split of 1832!... and the scripture "It Is Finished"... became not what was said!

Pastor Larry there is something you should know about Primitive Baptist and I speak as having been one for 35 years. I don't know about the other Primitive Baptist brethren on the BB but I only speak from my experience. These seminary words you brethren bring up like hermanutics, corporate/personal election... instead of elect and non-elect have never been heard in my church. Primitive Baptist are simple folk and these what we call seminary words would not impress our people. If our preachers are seminary trained it's because they have crossed over from the other side and have to prove themselves among our brethren before they can preach. Those who come up among us are self taught and liberated to exercise to see if they have the gift. If after liberated when the church feels the brother is qualified then he is ordained. Sorry to go off topic but I wanted to clear things up!... When I say I've never heard of that even though you are serious in your statement I'm not kidding... You have no idea how primitive... Primitive Baptist really are!... by primitive we mean original!... Brother Glen

[ July 05, 2002, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

If I remember correctly, infusion is a Roman Catholic term for their false doctrine of infusion of righteousness. The Bible teaches imputation of Christ's righteousness.

And...a dead sinner can't reach out toward anyone without being given spiritual life(the new birth) first.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not grace...

 

I am not arguing anything differently. What I am saying is what the Bible says -- that regeneration is accompanied by an objective realization of the message of the gospel, faith and repentance that leads to life. There is no regeneration that takes place absent the proclamation of the message.

Glen, As for big words and the like, they are not the issures. HOwever, those in authority to teach need to be familiar with these things. It is fine to be "down home" and all that but these are common words and ideas in theological writing that are very important in preparing to preach and teach. Ignorance of them is not a virtue. I am not suggesting that one need to know the words, but they need to be familiar with teh ideas. Oftentimes, the Bible is unclearly taught, or taught without a theological basis of systematic theology and the end result is false teaching from sincere people who believe they are right. That is a danger in churches because teachers have a great responsibility (James 3:1). It is something to be very careful of.

 

Pastor Larry ... Brother Glen

 

Ken,

I too, believe in the imputation of Christ into our lives at the moment of our conversion to Him.

 

Primitive Baptist,

You are right. I don't know any real Christian who would want to try to say that her own faith in herself brought about her cure. Her ability to believe that Jesus could make her whole is what brought about the cure. I am sure she took know credit for her steps toward Christ.