Primitive Baptist
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Amen, Bro. Ray.
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"It is Finished!"
- Thread starter Primitive Baptist
- Start date
... That among other reasons was the cause of the split of 1832!... and the scripture "It Is Finished"... became not what was said!
Pastor Larry there is something you should know about Primitive Baptist and I speak as having been one for 35 years. I don't know about the other Primitive Baptist brethren on the BB but I only speak from my experience. </snip>. Those who come up among us are self taught and liberated to exercise to see if they have the gift. If after liberated when the church feels the brother is qualified then he is ordained. Sorry to go off topic but I wanted to clear things up!... When I say I've never heard of that even though you are serious in your statement I'm not kidding... You have no idea how primitive... Primitive Baptist really are!... by primitive we mean original!... Brother Glen
Primitive Baptist
New Member
"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (I John 2:27)
The Holy Spirit is our teacher.
"Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins." (Is. 40:1, 2)
Isaiah 40:1, 2 defines the purpose of Primitive Baptist preaching; to proclaim to God's elect that the war has been fought and won and that our sins have been pardoned by the precious blood of the LAMB! We don't preach to make a success out of the Lord or to reach poor, perishing souls for heaven but to let them know what Jesus Christ accomplished at Calvary and that their sins have been forgiven, so they, like us, can rejoice and give all glory to God, their Saviour.
"If one should be sent with a message from a king to all his subjects in a certain distant land, he would not have to inquire out those subjects before delivering it; for the message itself, proclaimed openly among all the people, would find out those in whose native language it was delivered, and thus distinguish them from among all the multitudes as the ones unto whom it was sent. So the gospel is a message of glad tidings sent in the language of Canaan, and though proclaimed among all people, none hear and understand but those who have been born of God. Unto these he "has turned a pure language," and by hearing and believing that sweet message they are manifest as those unto whom it was sent by the Great King." -Elder Silas H. Durand (1881)
[ July 06, 2002, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
The Holy Spirit is our teacher.
"Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins." (Is. 40:1, 2)
Isaiah 40:1, 2 defines the purpose of Primitive Baptist preaching; to proclaim to God's elect that the war has been fought and won and that our sins have been pardoned by the precious blood of the LAMB! We don't preach to make a success out of the Lord or to reach poor, perishing souls for heaven but to let them know what Jesus Christ accomplished at Calvary and that their sins have been forgiven, so they, like us, can rejoice and give all glory to God, their Saviour.
"If one should be sent with a message from a king to all his subjects in a certain distant land, he would not have to inquire out those subjects before delivering it; for the message itself, proclaimed openly among all the people, would find out those in whose native language it was delivered, and thus distinguish them from among all the multitudes as the ones unto whom it was sent. So the gospel is a message of glad tidings sent in the language of Canaan, and though proclaimed among all people, none hear and understand but those who have been born of God. Unto these he "has turned a pure language," and by hearing and believing that sweet message they are manifest as those unto whom it was sent by the Great King." -Elder Silas H. Durand (1881)
[ July 06, 2002, 02:39 AM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
ScottEmerson
Active Member
I really wish people wouldn't use such rhetoric. I could say (and rightly so) that I was a Calvinist before the Lord opened up my eyes on what His love really is.
So whose eyes were really opened and who here is claiming as an act of God something that is merely an act of mind?
Technically, it is what Scripture teaches; it is also what I teach therefore. In those cases, you have people reading teh words on the page whose meaning can be understood by anyone. It is not some foreign language. It is the significance that cannot be understood apart from the Holy Spirit. In both men, the Holy Spirit was exerting a drawing influence that would certainly result in regeneration.
It seems that your position would have the problem with these two because they are two clearly unregenerate persons who need a messenger to explain to them the message.
Your post concerning preaching to make a success out of Christ shows a continued refusal to understand what I am saying. You are arguing against a view that does not exist as far as I am concerned. I am not preachign to make a success out of Christ or his atonement. I am preaching to fulfill God's call and to be a part of the harvest in accordance with his revealed will.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
According to your theology one seems to receive the gift of belief before regeneration; the natural man, dead in trespasses and sins, exercises belief and is therefore regnerated! I can find no such thing in Scripture. In other words, God convicts a sinner of his sin with a stony heart? The natural man doesn't seek God. If you show me people reading the word of God and truthfully desiring understanding or people praying for preachers to come, I'll show you a place where God has already been. When our sins are forgiven, that's when we're saved ETERNALLY. When did that happen? According to Colossians 2:13 it was prior to the quickening of the Spirit, therefore our faith didn't acheive it. There's not one verse in the entire Bible that teaches the forgiveness of sins is the result of faith, not one.
In a strictly technical sense, yes, belief leads to life (Acts 11:18; John 20:31; Col 2:12). However, that belief is the result of the efficacious call to the dead man that enables him to believe. God convicts a sinner of sin with the result that he turns to God in faith. I am in the minority though I can make a strong exegetical case for my position. All who know me accept that I am a full-blooded sovereigntist.
I do not argue with you that people who are truly desiring to know and understand have been operated on by God. That is not at issue here. The issue here is taht justification (which includes the forgiveness of sins) comes by faith (Rom 5:1). I do not see how you can possibly deny this. It is explicit in Scripture.
Col 2:12 (the immediately preceding verse that you ignored) specifies that such was "through faith."
Clearly not true:
Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
Salvation, justification, and its many descriptions are all said to derive from faith. That faith is the gift of God given unilaterally and efficaciously to the elect.
Again, it comes down to a simple matter of what Scripture says vs. what a theological system says. Your theological system contradicts what Scripture says and you have given no justification for holding to it or alternative explanations for the text of Scritpure. You simply ignore them. That is not satisfactory.
[ July 06, 2002, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Primitive Baptist
New Member
I was hoping you would mention Acts 10:43.
(Acts 10:43) To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
This verse certainly does not teach decisional regeneration.
If we look are the Greek verbs this is even more apparent.
To him give all the prophets witness (present active indicative) --- indicating continuous action in the PRESENT time. The prophets are continually giving witness, that is, through the inspired written word, received by the quickened saint.
that through his name whosoever believeth in him (present active participle) -- again this indicates continuous action in the PRESENT time. Those who ARE BELIEVING in him.
shall receive remission of sins (aorist active indicative) -- indicates punctiliar action in the PAST time. At some particular point in the PAST they RECEIVED remission of sins.
This verses tells us that the ones who are believing are indeed the ones who already received remission of sins. There is no cause and effect asserted between believing and remission, indeed the verse would rather argue against the heresy of decisional regeneration.
Here is where the education you so despise would help you. First, it is an aorist, active infinitive (not indicative). Second, the aorist refers to a completed state of action, not with particular reference to the punctiliar past notion that many associate with it. Third, no matter which way you slice it, the belief and forgiveness go together. You have people forgiven without belief. The Scriptures stand in uniform contradiction of that position.
Furthermore, in no place have I spoken about decisional regeneration. You keep talking about something that is irrelevant ot the issue. Once again, Scripture is the key.
Ray Berrian
New Member
There is no gift of faith before or after regeneration. Grace is the gift of God which is offered to humankind. Faith is our response to His gracious offer. Check the Greek scholars on the verse Ephesians 2:8-9 and not Elder J.B. Jones {hypothetical name} who never learned the New Testament Greek alphabet. The Elder is a good man but no Greek scholar and absolutely not a theologian. You might have settled for an elder who could at least understand the meaning behind the Greek in this passage.
The "it" {touto} is neuter in form and cannot refer to faith (pistis), which is feminine. Dr. A.T. Robertson will fully explain the Greek to our Extreme Calvinists. The uniform pattern of the Word of God is to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it.
John 3:16. If Extreme Calvinists were correct the Word would indicate that ‘eternal life is the condition of believing.' Their view is inverted and incorrect.
The "it" {touto} is neuter in form and cannot refer to faith (pistis), which is feminine. Dr. A.T. Robertson will fully explain the Greek to our Extreme Calvinists. The uniform pattern of the Word of God is to place faith logically prior to salvation as a condition for receiving it.
John 3:16. If Extreme Calvinists were correct the Word would indicate that ‘eternal life is the condition of believing.' Their view is inverted and incorrect.
KenH
Well-Known Member
But Ray, have you forgotten about Philippians 1:29?
"For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for Him."
And Ray, don't forget about Hebrews 12:2 where Jesus called "the Author and Finisher of our faith"
One to whom faith has been granted,
Ken
Were it not for grace...
John W Mergel
New Member
You are correct Ken, the Word of God is very clear that God must grant it to an individual to believe, for the Bible also states that 'believing' is 'Work of God"(John 6:29), and that the 'enslaved will' of men(Rom 6:17-18;8:7-8;John 1:12-13)have no part in this whatsoever.
You fellas can kick and scream and use various greek terms to try and twist what the Word of God clearly states, but God's purposes will have been set for eternity, and there is not a notion or a thought-action of men that will change this.
As Proverbs 16:9 clearly declares "The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps." Even my children can understand that one.
Enabled by the Father(John 6:44),
John W Mergel
You fellas can kick and scream and use various greek terms to try and twist what the Word of God clearly states, but God's purposes will have been set for eternity, and there is not a notion or a thought-action of men that will change this.
As Proverbs 16:9 clearly declares "The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps." Even my children can understand that one.
Enabled by the Father(John 6:44),
John W Mergel
Discussions about Bible versions will not be permitted in this forum. If you wish to make comments about versions, make them in the appropriate place.
Thank you.
[ July 07, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Thank you.
[ July 07, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Primitive Baptist
New Member
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." (Acts 10:43)
"Believeth" is a present active participle indicating the subject is now doing the action. "Shall receive" is in the second aortist tense. This changes nothing I have said. It is equally clear if someone is believing on Jesus Christ they are born of God (I John 5:1), not can be or will be, but are. I never said I hated knowledge. Grammar is not something you have to learn in a seminary, PASTORS AND FRIENDS, it is common sense especially when you can read it from a book right in front your face what a present active participle and the second aortist tense is.
New Testament Greek Definition:
5780 Tense - Second Aorist
The "second aorist" tense is identical in meaning and translation to the normal or "first" aorist tense. The only difference is in the form of spelling the words in Greek, and there is no effect upon English translation.
See "Aorist" # 5777
New Testament Greek Definition:
5777 Tense - Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars. The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.
[ July 08, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
"Believeth" is a present active participle indicating the subject is now doing the action. "Shall receive" is in the second aortist tense. This changes nothing I have said. It is equally clear if someone is believing on Jesus Christ they are born of God (I John 5:1), not can be or will be, but are. I never said I hated knowledge. Grammar is not something you have to learn in a seminary, PASTORS AND FRIENDS, it is common sense especially when you can read it from a book right in front your face what a present active participle and the second aortist tense is.
New Testament Greek Definition:
5780 Tense - Second Aorist
The "second aorist" tense is identical in meaning and translation to the normal or "first" aorist tense. The only difference is in the form of spelling the words in Greek, and there is no effect upon English translation.
See "Aorist" # 5777
New Testament Greek Definition:
5777 Tense - Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The most common of these include a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars. The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should suffice in most cases.
[ July 08, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
John W Mergel
New Member
Just another quick observation:
By saying that 'grace' is a gift and 'faith' is not, you must be saying that God supplies the grace, but the faith is somehow grunted out, mustered
up, earned, sought out, or obtained by someone who is dead in his or her trespases and sins(Eph 2:1,4). You have made up a non-biblical accurance
when you think you can seperate 'saving grace' and 'saving faith'. This is an impossibility!
When Ray states that "Faith is our response to His gracious offer", Ray is contradicting Hebrews 11:6 which clearly states "And without faithit is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those wo earnestly seek Him." So Ray would would have to be saying that a positive response to God's gracious offer of salvation would not please God. I don't think so Ray. Scripture also declares that "-no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit."(1 Cor 12:3b). Titus 3:5 clearly states "He saved us, not because of righteous things we have one, but because of His mercy. He saved us through te washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." So once again if Ray is claiming that the saving faith comes from us before regeneration
as a reward for our positive "response" then he is clearly contradicting what is clearly being said in these verses. All of our (self)righteous acts are but filthy rags.(Isaiah 64:6)
On our own in our fallen state, we can neither seek or understand God (Rom 3:10-12; 2 Cor 4:4), we must have a heart transplant (Col 2:11-14), which is 100% of God (John 1:12-13).
You fellas need to remember that whether you are reading, studying, meditating on, or exegeting the Word of God, you must also keep this in mind:
God says it- It's True
not: God says it- I understand- now it's true
We must learn to take our finite minds out of this equasion.
ALL glory to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ
John W Mergel
[ July 08, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: John W Mergel ]
By saying that 'grace' is a gift and 'faith' is not, you must be saying that God supplies the grace, but the faith is somehow grunted out, mustered
up, earned, sought out, or obtained by someone who is dead in his or her trespases and sins(Eph 2:1,4). You have made up a non-biblical accurance
when you think you can seperate 'saving grace' and 'saving faith'. This is an impossibility!
When Ray states that "Faith is our response to His gracious offer", Ray is contradicting Hebrews 11:6 which clearly states "And without faithit is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those wo earnestly seek Him." So Ray would would have to be saying that a positive response to God's gracious offer of salvation would not please God. I don't think so Ray. Scripture also declares that "-no one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit."(1 Cor 12:3b). Titus 3:5 clearly states "He saved us, not because of righteous things we have one, but because of His mercy. He saved us through te washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." So once again if Ray is claiming that the saving faith comes from us before regeneration
as a reward for our positive "response" then he is clearly contradicting what is clearly being said in these verses. All of our (self)righteous acts are but filthy rags.(Isaiah 64:6)
On our own in our fallen state, we can neither seek or understand God (Rom 3:10-12; 2 Cor 4:4), we must have a heart transplant (Col 2:11-14), which is 100% of God (John 1:12-13).
You fellas need to remember that whether you are reading, studying, meditating on, or exegeting the Word of God, you must also keep this in mind:
God says it- It's True
not: God says it- I understand- now it's true
We must learn to take our finite minds out of this equasion.
ALL glory to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ
John W Mergel
[ July 08, 2002, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: John W Mergel ]
Then learn it from a book. Start with Daniel B. Wallace, "Greek Grammer Beyond the Basics." Your understanding of the aorist is extremely simplistic. It can very often be translated by the simple past tense, but it also is not always translated that way. Futhermore, the fact that you are dealing with an infinitive (rather than a finite verb) makes a difference.
I noticed that you conveniently changed translations. I quoted the NASB which has a better rendering of this verse. You quoted the KJV (the Bible of your primitive friend Glen who says we shouldn't be talking about the Greek anyway). If he is right, then your case is even worse. However, since the KJV is not the best translation here, I will let your off the hook.
The point is that the present tense verbal participle (believes) and the aorist active infinitive (receives) discuss the relationship. The aorist talks of an accomplished state of forgiveness without necessary regard for how or when it came into being. So the point seems to be that belief and forgiveness are inseparable. You can't have one without the other. This is the express point that you seem to deny and it is quite confusing to understand how you get around this various passages that talk of the necessity of faith for justification which has an inherent component of forgiveness.
You need not concern yourself with this unless you are going to try to make grammatical points with it. In that case, you better concern yourself with it.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
Scripture interprets Scripture. Other verses which clearly teach faith is an evidence of justification must be the deciding factor in this debate.
Where?
How, then, can you attempt to prove forgiveness comes after faith?
To be consistent in your theology, infants and those who are incapable of responding to the Gospel in faith because of some condition are damned because they can't exercise faith. If one is required to hear and required to believe, all are. Don't attempt to justify them without faith because Jesus said, "...so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) If belief is a condition for one to be born again, it's a condition for all.
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col. 2:13)
Without consulting the Greek, a natural reading of this verse would put the forgiveness of sins prior to quickening ("having forgiven"). According to your theology, the sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, exercises faith and is regenerated.
Are you a Baptist?
[ July 08, 2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
First, where are these verses; and second, why must they be the deciding factor instead of other verses being the deciding factor about your verses? You see, you have entered into arguing from your views rather than arguing to them.
Rom 5:1 still says that we are justified by faith, a phrase that is often repeated in the NT. In fact, the cornerstone doctrine of soteriology is salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Where?
</font>[/QUOTE]I cited Acts 10:43 from the NASB: Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." You cited it from the KJV: Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Notice that it is the KJV that makes the forgiveness subsequent to faith, something that you deny (and I affirm).
Because of the uniform testimony of Scripture that justification and salvation comes from faith. Both are virtually synonymous with forgiveness in the eternal sense.
[/qb]This I cannot fully answer because God didn't tell us. 2 Sam 12 does give some indication that God makes a way for those unable because of mental faculties to enter heaven. I cannot be dogmatic on that. What I can be dogmatic on is that salvation never comes apart from faith and believing becuase Scritpure is clear on that regard.
Not sure why you bring 2:13 up. I was talking about 2:12 which specifies that this is done "by faith." I do not have a dead sinner exercising faith. If you read my posts you will know that. I have a divinely and efficaciously enabled sinner exercising faith so that he may have life."And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col. 2:13)
Without consulting the Greek, a natural reading of this verse would put the forgiveness of sins prior to quickening ("having forgiven"). According to your theology, the sinner, dead in trespasses and sins, exercises faith and is regenerated.
Yes
[ July 09, 2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Primitive Baptist
New Member
[/qb]God is not bestowing grace on someone because of a condition he met. God gives the faith.
[/qb]I don't know why for you but I know why for me.
My point is that the KJV makes faith the basis for forgiveness. I cited the NASB which translates it more as it was written, in an ambiguous tense. The KJV made an interpretive decision that you are disagreeing with. It seems to show that your theology is not coming from teh Bible but from people are telling you about the Bible.
I think the bottom line here is this, my friend (and I do consider you a friend in spite of the heat here): I believe that the Scripture clearly teaches that salvation comes by God-given faith which man cannot produce in himself. I believe there are insurmountable passages of Scripture that demand no other view. I think that you are minimizing those passages becuase of a misconception about the work of Christ in salvation and a misconception about what Scripture teaches about the role and origin of faith.
I will not continue here. The points have been made. I wish the Scripture would be more significantly dealt with but time and other factors prevent that and so, barring some unforeseen incident, I will bow out.
[ July 09, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]