free will to choose?

if man has the know how or ability to choose God (Jesus) or not. then man should at least have the chance to hear the gospel, why are not arminians griping about that issue, or do they think those who haven't heard the gospel will be saved?
how about all those people who lived in complete ignorance and then die not given the chance to hear about Christ. or is it all their forefathers fault for following different religions? what say the liberals or armininans on this issue?

I asked a similar question in another thread: Is it possible for anyone to be lost because someone (ostensibly of their own free will) disobeys the command to share the Gospel? I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer. Someone said, "No, because God will call someone else." But that's not a complete answer. As long as God depends on someone to respond to the call, and as long as man has the free-will not to respond, there's always the possibility that nobody will respond, or that a limited response will not reach everyone.

So I ask again, is it possible for anyone to be lost because of man's free-will ability to disobey the call to share the Gospel?

Originally posted by npetreley:
is it possible for anyone to be lost because of man's free-will ability to disobey the call to share the Gospel?

Click to expand...

That's a major problem with the Arminian scheme - the success of everything related to the salvation God has accomplished is dependent on man. That's why I think, to be consistent, those who believe in salvation by free will should be Open Theists.

Ken

There is a written gospel and there is a Living Gospel... Which one saves eternally?... If you say the written gospel then you believe in Gospel Regeneration!... If you say the Living Gospel then you believe in Spiritual Regeneration... Which according to John 5:39 is the only way any of Gods children are eternally saved!

John 5:[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The written word of God explicitly teaches that eternal life does not come from anything but the Living Word... Beloved let us love one another for love is of God and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God!... Brother Glen

if man has the know how or ability to choose God (Jesus) or not. then man should at least have the chance to hear the gospel, why are not arminians griping about that issue, or do they think those who haven't heard the gospel will be saved?
how about all those people who lived in complete ignorance and then die not given the chance to hear about Christ. or is it all their forefathers fault for following different religions? what say the liberals or armininans on this issue?

Click to expand...

Your question implies an ignorance of the scriptures.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Psalms 19:1-4 <<To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.>> The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I am not an Armenian and I do not believe that a person who has been born again will ever fall away. However, neither do I believe that God decreed who would and who would not be saved without regards to the will of man.

[ November 21, 2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: JMF ]

So I ask again, is it possible for anyone to be lost because of man's free-will ability to disobey the call to share the Gospel?

Click to expand...

The Bible teaches that God has called or will call every person He has ever created. The calling of every person was His decreed will; the election was not.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen[Greek #1588; also translated elect].

However, neither do I believe that God decreed who would and who would not be saved without regards to the will of man.

Click to expand...

The decree is not made irrespective of the wills of human beings, but it is made without being dependent upon them. God uses means: prayer, evangelism, etc. God ordains both the ends AND the means (which includes the use of the will).

Rev. G

The Bible teaches that God has called or will call every person He has ever created.

Click to expand...

Does everyone receive the exact same call / calling?

The calling of every person was His decreed will; the election was not.

Click to expand...

Biblical support?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen[Greek #1588; also translated elect].

Click to expand...

Is your statement here that the "chosen" in Mt. 22:14 is a noun rather than a verb? If so, this only weakens your argument. Do you see why?

[ November 22, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

Rev G. I might also ask for your Biblical support seeing as how you have given me absolutely none.

Here is mine

Does everyone receive the exact same call / calling?

Click to expand...

Trick question? Everyone is called to be saved, not everyone chooses to be saved.

I state again:

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Proverbs 1:21-30 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 25:14-19 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Now for sake of space:

the man with the one talent was a lost man, yet he received a talent? Tell me-what is the talent a type of?

Is your statement here that the "chosen" in Mt. 22:14 is a noun rather than a verb? If so, this only weakens your argument. Do you see why?

Click to expand...

My point was that every one is called, not every one is chosen. This signifies that the "choosing" follows a "calling"(see above)

So many == everyone? Isn't there a word for "all" in Greek?

Rev G. I might also ask for your Biblical support seeing as how you have given me absolutely none.

Click to expand...

Hey man, I was responding to what you had written, no need for the attitude.

Ephesians 1:5 - "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will"

Ephesians 1:9 - "having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself"

Ephesians 1:11 - "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will"

How's that, friend?

Trick question? Everyone is called to be saved, not everyone chooses to be saved.

I state again [John 1:9; Proverbs 1:21-30; Deuteronomy 30:19-20; Joshua 24:15; Isaiah 65:12; 66:4; Matthew 22:14; 25:14-19]

Click to expand...

No, not a trick question at all. If everyone receives the same exact call, then the "Arminian" system falls apart per Romans 8:30.

Question: What causes some to choose for Christ while other reject Him? Are they better? More humble? More spiritual? More sensitive? More broken? What is it?

the man with the one talent was a lost man, yet he received a talent? Tell me-what is the talent a type of?

Click to expand...

Literally, money. "Type" / analagous to stewardship.

My point was that every one is called, not every one is chosen. This signifies that the "choosing" follows a "calling"(see above)

Click to expand...

Everyone is called. Check.
Not everyone is chosen. Check.
This does not signify that the "choosing" follows a "calling."

Hey man, I was responding to what you had written, no need for the attitude.

Click to expand...

My point, Rev. G, was: Responding without scripture is no response at all. I was merely pointing out that you claim to have the truth and yet I might inform you that I will not hear your reasoning without the scripture to support it. Is this not what you expect of me?

Ephesians 1:5 - "having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will"

Ephesians 1:9 - "having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself"

Ephesians 1:11 - "in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will"

How's that, friend?

Click to expand...

Thanks, much better.

These passages cause me to think. I do not have an answer for them at this time. I am seeking the Lord as to what the truth is here. Thanks for your replies.

Massdak
if man has the know how or ability to choose God (Jesus) or not. then man should at least have the chance to hear the gospel, why are not arminians griping about that issue, or do they think those who haven't heard the gospel will be saved?
how about all those people who lived in complete ignorance and then die not given the chance to hear about Christ. or is it all their forefathers fault for following different religions? what say the liberals or armininans on this issue?

Click to expand...

Good question posted again on this board.

What about those who have not been given a missionary with the full story of the life of Christ?

For that matter - most of those in Hebrews 11 did not have that full story - what about them?

Oh - you don't "need to hear the whole story?" - Enoch in Heb 11 is taken directly to Heaven - pre-cross, pre-story.

And then there is Romans 2.


Romans2:14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Let's not miss that simple point. There actually were real Gentiles that did not have the scriptures! This is the "Worst case scenario". People without access to God's Word in scripture.
That is very important to understand. And yet the God that "Draws all mankind to Him" (John 12:32) and Convicts thw World of "sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:16 - gains the result such that even in this case we have those that "do instintively the things of the law ... Showing the work of the law written on their heart". I have to assume that Paul is correct on this point.

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "THE LAW WRITTEN ON THE HEART" is the New Covenant promise that we see in Hebrews 8. Yes indeed we have the Succeeding case of Romans 2 showing Gospel salvation and the New Covenant fulfilled Even to the worst case scenario group - those without scripture.

Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is Gospel - Good News that a Future judgment, where the gentiles without the scriptures are shown to be Doers of God's Law and not merely Hearers only - the New Covenant promise of Heb 8 the Law written on the heart.

This focus is on a Future Christ Centered judgment. What a Christ-centered Gospel Paul has in this chapter!

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 22, 2002, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

Bob,

People in the OT were saved by responding in faith to the revelation God had given to that point. It does not prove that people today can be saved with the revelation God has given to this point. In this era, no one can be saved without a conscious knowledge of and faith in the finished work of Christ.

Bob:

Great! Now we don't have to worry about evangelism and missions. People, not hearing the "power of God unto salvation" (the Gospel) can be saved apart from placing faith in Christ.

Rev. G

Men have never been saved by other than Christ. Either as the Promise or as Christ. But to say that intellectual knowledge of something about Christ is necessary to salvation is adding works. Intellectual knowledge/understanding is not necessary. Only believing on Christ is necessary. And those who don't know His name or earthly history still have it in their cultures and legends -- and always have -- that God will rescue. One can have faith in God that way and that IS having faith in Christ, who IS God. Who DID rescue.

To deny that God can and has reached out to people without our help is to belittle Him, as I see it.

Originally posted by Helen:
Men have never been saved by other than Christ. Either as the Promise or as Christ. But to say that intellectual knowledge of something about Christ is necessary to salvation is adding works. Intellectual knowledge/understanding is not necessary. Only believing on Christ is necessary. And those who don't know His name or earthly history still have it in their cultures and legends -- and always have -- that God will rescue. One can have faith in God that way and that IS having faith in Christ, who IS God. Who DID rescue.

Click to expand...

But it seems as if you're saying elsewhere that we're alive until we gain intellectual knowledge of the law, after which we die. If we're alive before we know the law, then why do we need Christ? I'm still trying to sort out what it is you're saying, so if I've misunderstood, please explain.

Originally posted by Helen:
And those who don't know His name or earthly history still have it in their cultures and legends -- and always have -- that God will rescue. One can have faith in God that way and that IS having faith in Christ, who IS God. Who DID rescue.

Click to expand...

By the way, although I don't agree completely with your analysis as to why this is possible, I do happen to agree with your conclusion that one can be saved BY and THROUGH Jesus without having actually heard the NAME Jesus in our earthly lifetime. But although I think I could put together a Biblical defense of that position, it wouldn't be as easy as it would be to defend other things.

Originally posted by Helen:
Men have never been saved by other than Christ. Either as the Promise or as Christ. But to say that intellectual knowledge of something about Christ is necessary to salvation is adding works. Intellectual knowledge/understanding is not necessary. Only believing on Christ is necessary. And those who don't know His name or earthly history still have it in their cultures and legends -- and always have -- that God will rescue. One can have faith in God that way and that IS having faith in Christ, who IS God. Who DID rescue.

To deny that God can and has reached out to people without our help is to belittle Him, as I see it.

Click to expand...

helen why is the gospel necessary if cultures already have ledgends to believe in ?