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free will to choose?
- Thread starter massdak
- Start date
But it seems as if you're saying elsewhere that we're alive until we gain intellectual knowledge of the law, after which we die. If we're alive before we know the law, then why do we need Christ? I'm still trying to sort out what it is you're saying, so if I've misunderstood, please explain.</font>[/QUOTE]Very short lunch break, so I'm typing fast and trying to answer...excuse typos
Every man who has reasonable intellect (I have to say that because of my son, as I think you know...) is GOING to have a sense of right and wrong for their own sakes, at the very least, by adulthood. I don't have time to look up the verses, so I'm counting on you to know them, but do you remember that Paul said if a person considers something a sin, then it is a sin for that person? I believe it was in relation to eating meat sacrificed to idols...
However it appears, when we look at the cultures of the world from all the times we know, that God has indeed put the law in the hearts of men. Every culture's laws have bases in a concept of right and wrong, ethical and unethical, good and evil. So everyone who ever comes to an age of recognition of right and wrong, not because it will please mommy or the priest or the witchdoctor or whatever, but right and wrong for its own sake, is going to die spiritually. There is no way around it. Our hearts always TEND toward evil from childhood so when we have a grip on what evil is, we always tend to head in that direction. And no matter how hard a person fights that tendency -- and some people put up a mighty battle! -- it only takes one 'slip' in rebelling against the law or whatever part of it God has made known to you, for you to be eternally separated from Him unless there is some kind of saving grace also available to you.
So it's not a matter of 'believing in legends' as one person mentioned. It's not that at all for ancients and others. It's a matter of getting past the legend to a real truth remembered about a God above all Gods, and man being separated for his own fault, and not being able to fix the situation, and God promising to do something about it. That dilemma and promise appear to be in every culture. A zillion (pardon my mathematical precision there...
I hope that helps. I'll check in later this evening. Dr. app't for my daughter to check on her amputation (fingers). Stitches are not dissolving the way they are supposed to and she is in constant pain. Back this evening.
No, I don't know. I probably missed some posts somewhere.
So am I correct in saying you believe we are born saved, and then lose our salvation (die spiritually) when we sin for the first time from a postition of knowledge of sin?
Again, am I correct in saying that you believe that in the case of God's law, ignorance is an excuse?
My prayers (and I'm certain the prayers of all other brothers and sisters who read your message) are with you and your daughter.
What??
Eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ:
John 17:3 John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Lack of knowledge led to a wrong approach to God:
Romans 10:3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in Christ is the light that brings salvation:
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Lack of knowledge is the basis for retribution:
2 Thessalonians 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Knowing Christ is salvation in Johannine writings:
1 John 2:3-4 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Are you seriously suggesting that one can believe in Christ without first knowing him intellectually? In what are they believing? There must be facts and truths to be understood in order to be believed. There can be no salvation in this age without the knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I did not know about the situation with your daughter. I am sorry to hear that. My prayers are with you and her.
[ November 22, 2002, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Daniel David
New Member
Pastor Larry, isn't this kind of like what Millard Erickson's take on salvation of the heathen is?
So why do you support missions and evangelism, Helen? What's the point?
"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
- Acts 17:29-31
"Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him..."
- 2 John 9-10
"Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
- Acts 2:38-39
"To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
- Acts 10:43
Sounds akin to Karl Rahner's "Anonymous Christian" teaching.
Ken, I'll let Spurgeon (from his version of the 1689) answer your question on my behalf:
"Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."
Note: Those who are "incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word" does not refer to those in foreign lands who have never heard the Gospel. It has to do with those who are mentally incapacitated, etc.
Rev. G
"Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word."
Note: Those who are "incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word" does not refer to those in foreign lands who have never heard the Gospel. It has to do with those who are mentally incapacitated, etc.
Rev. G
Originally posted by Helen:
first helen my prayers are with you and your daughter.Originally posted by npetreley:
So it's not a matter of 'believing in legends' as one person mentioned. It's not that at all for ancients and others. It's a matter of getting past the legend to a real truth remembered about a God above all Gods, and man being separated for his own fault, and not being able to fix the situation, and God promising to do something about it. That dilemma and promise appear to be in every culture. A zillion (pardon my mathematical precision there...) religions and cults have grown up around the idea that man really can do something to 'help' God along. But for the man who trusts God and God alone, on the basis of the Promise if the name of Jesus is not known, that man is trusting as fully as I ever could in Christ. Maybe even more -- for he is throwing his lot to an unknown God. The joyous thing missionaries have done is declare "He is not an unknown God! He fulfilled that Promise! Let me tell you about it..." -- and it gives the others the joy of a hope fulfilled.
I hope that helps. I'll check in later this evening. Dr. app't for my daughter to check on her amputation (fingers). Stitches are not dissolving the way they are supposed to and she is in constant pain. Back this evening.
but to continue i see a very serious error in your doctrine. your doctrine seems to exclude Christ and seems to acknowledge an unknown god as you put it in saving those who have never heard of Jesus. i do not believe that you can attribute any unknown ledgend type gods to Christ.
I'll do what I can to respond to the incredible number of misconceptions about what I am trying to say here. I'll go down the posts starting right after my last one and see what I can muddy up further, OK?
npetreley, my youngest son had encephalitis when he was three. He was blind, deaf, and immobile for two weeks and then had to try to come back. He plateaued very early and has sustained massive brain damage because of the illness. He is 18 years old now and taller than I am. He can see and hear and is physically quite healthy, knowing how to raid the refrigerator, among other things! But his IQ is 19. He cannot be potty trained and so will always wear diapers. He cannot speak (which he was doing some of before the encephalitis hit).
I can see a sin nature in him. There is no doubt about that. He has thrown things, broken things, gets up and turns on the light in his room when I put him down, sneaks food (we lock everything!), etc. etc.
Can I punish him? No way. He would not connect the punishment with the crime. Probably not even as much as a nine month old baby would. Yes, he has a sin nature. Yes, he does wrong things. No, I cannot hold him accountable for them. We just have to watch him with an eagle eye!
He is the personal reason I try to make sure that when I speak of an adult I make sure people understand I mean those of reasonably functional levels.
Are we born saved? No. Are we born dead in our sins? No. We are born not yet in need of salvation, actually, for we are not yet separated from God. What other meaning can it have that the angels of the little ones always see the face of the Father in heaven? That could not possibly be true of the little ones if they were spiritually stillborn -- already dead in sin.
And the reason they are NOT dead due to their sin nature and subsequent unknown sins is because Christ was the sacrifice for unknown sins as well as everything else. Therefore they are born under His covering sacrifice, and if they die before their first conscious, deliberate rebellion, they are still under His cover. I am convinced this is what Paul was telling us in Romans 7, and what David presumed to be true regarding his own dead son as well.
So it's not a matter of losing one's salvation, but a matter of not yet being lost.
Is ignorance an excuse? Yes, it is. It does not mean you did not sin or did not break the law, but it does mean you cannot justly be held accountable for it until you do know the law. Sin and accountability are very different things. When Chris was younger, he went through a stage of sitting on things. Anything. Including a birthday cake the other kids made for me. Now maybe that wasn't a sin against God, but the other kids certainly felt it was a sin against THEM! They hollered and screamed something fierce at him, but no one could punish him. Oldest to the youngest of the others, they all knew that would have been wrong. So we took a picture of the squashed cake and saved the picture for a memory and laughter in later years.
But we have all had cake-sitting moments in our lives -- doing something we had no idea was wrong at the time and were terribly apologetic for afterwards. And what is the response from the people we offend? "That's OK. You didn't know...."
How can people be more understanding or more forgiving than God? Simple, they can't. He's the one we get it from in the first place!
Now, if you apply for, say, a driver's license (I'm using an example brought up before on another thread) and then get caught speeding in a zone you did not know the speed limit for, you are rightly accountable. Speed limit signs are posted, and you are expected to pay attention when you drive. If you are driving in another state, it is your responsiblity as a licensed driver to know that state's laws. You are also expected to know and obey the first rule of the road which is to drive no faster than the conditions warrant at any given time. These things are on the tests, and when you apply for your license you are declaring legally that you can be held accountable for traffic violations when you are the driver. So in that kind of condition it is pretty rare for a judge to allow a plea of ignorance.
But no one signed up to be a human being! No tests were taken, and no one studied or trained ahead of time. We all come into this world pretty wide-eyed and innocent in terms of knowing or not knowing a thing. As we learn, we are held accountable for what we know (or, as in the case of students, perhaps what we are supposed to know!). But, likewise, we cannot be held accountable for what we don't know.
It would be like me giving you a test on the properties of subatomic matter right here and now and holding you accountable for everything you have never learned about it!
And no, that's not different. Ignorance of someting you have never had even the chance to learn yet is a very real reason not to be held accountable for not knowing it or living in accord with knowledge of it!
Continuing -- I wanted to kick the doctor today, but mother's don't do that, do they??? Bianca's stitches are caught in deep layers of scab tissue and this is why they didn't seem to have dissolved. So the dear doctor just sort of peeled the scab off one tip of one finger stump and she cried out in pain and the tears were coursing down her face. She also is 18 years old, and not a little kid just crying. I was shocked that the doctor would do that and we both refused to let him touch the other finger. She can soak off the scabs if that is all that is wrong now. The fingers do look good, though. The scars are VERY thin, and for that we are grateful to the man.
On the way home -- and this actually ties in with what I was saying above -- after the ibuprofen took hold -- she said to me ( approximately), "He didn't know, Mom. He would never have done that if he knew what kind of pain it would give me. He's never had it happen to him."
She didn't hold him accountable because, even though he is the doctor. Her kind of surgery is rare and he had no idea, evidently, of the pain his pulling at that scab would cause her. Even in tears and pain she knew better than to figure he was accountable for the results of his actions, because he didn't know.
On to Pastor Larry,
Yes, eternal life IS knowing the Father and the Son. In fact that is one of the passages I use to try to explain that spiritual death is not spiritual unconsciousness, but rather separation from the Father and the Son.
Two things, though. First, the knowing Christ is speaking of is NOT intellectual acknowledgement, but rather the kind of knowing that He spoke of with "Depart from me, I never knew you." It is the knowing that has to do with an intimate relationship. And this kind of knowing is progressive, not a one-shot-is-everything affair. Understanding that, we know it WILL take all eternity to 'know' God. Our relationship with Him right now is barely the beginning of the knowing that will continue.
However, what I said that caused you to respond to the John 17 passage was this:
" But to say that intellectual knowledge of something about Christ is necessary to salvation is adding works. Intellectual knowledge/understanding is not necessary. Only believing on Christ is necessary."
When I said believing on Christ is necessary, I figured people would understand that at least His reality was known. The intellectual knowledge of God as Savior is indispensible. But no other knowledge or understanding is actually NEEDED after that to trust God. Salvation is not reserved, in other words, for the intellectually capable. In fact, far from it, for as has been quoted to me several times, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, beause you have hidden these tings from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." You know Jesus said that in Matthew 11. So we have to be careful about trying to pre-empt God's judgment of any human heart. THAT a person knows God saves is quite different from how much that person understands of the whole deal. THAT God promised to save man seems to be, from what I have read and studied, a promise that resonates through every culture from every time. Jesus is God. Telling folks that, and what He did -- that is the wonderful good news! God kept His promise! He did it through Himself, Jesus Christ, and here is how He did it....
When the angel announced the Good News the very first time, here is what was said:
Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy THAT WILL BE FOR ALL THE PEOPLE...
Not just some predetermined elect. All the people. And, for the life of me, I don't see how Calvinism is good news for any of the 'non-elect' or even the elect who love those who are 'non-elect.' Calvinism, on the contrary, is terrifying news to most who hear it, and this is certainly borne out in the emails and PM's I get regarding these discussions here on Baptist Board.
But the angel said the good news was for all people.
Oh, and knowing God's righteousness is not the same as knowing His law. The Israelites certainly knew THAT, and the verse quoted from Romans 10 is specifically concerning the Hebrews.
And then you quoted 2 Thess. 1:8. But that verse has a context. Paul is referring to those who are persecuting the Thessalonians. Those people certainly have a witness to God in the Thessalonian church. Therefore when Paul says they do not know God, that can be related right back to Romans 1:28 -- Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God..... Lastly, Here are the two verses which come immediately after the one you quoted:
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, BECAUSE YOU BELIEVED our testimony to you.
When you put it all together, Larry, those who do not know God have chosen not to know Him, according to Paul in Romans 1.
You then asked me, "Are you seriously suggesting that one can believe in Christ without first knowing him intellectually? In what are they believing? There must be facts and truths to be understood in order to be believed."
First of all here, in the quotes you used, you combined those referring to intellectual knowledge and relationship knowledge. They are two entirely different things. I would also suggest that the term 'knowing him intellectually' is actually an oxymoron, or self-contradicting. You can know OF someone intellectually, and yes, that is necessary. But when you know that someone, that is a relationship, not an intellectual thing. For instance, a doctor can say, "Mary? Yes, I know about her. She is my patient." He knows her history and condition physically. But if he says, "Mary? Yes I know her." he is implying a relationship of some kind -- not necessarily deep, but certainly more than knowing about her.
Knowing Jesus is the result of knowing about Him and trusting Him. You cannot know Him first.
Rev. G -- how can you ask me if I support missions and evangelism when you know very well and already responded to what I wrote before about the work my husband and I do?
Why is it that you folks ask the same questions over and over as though they have never been responded to before?
Of course I support missions and evangelism. We are on the front lines in many ways! People help support us in our work! But you already knew that!
ITM, I don't disagree with any verse you posted, certainly, and I have no knowledge of who Rahner is.
Massdak, I apologize if I seemed to exclude Christ. I most certainly could never do that. What I have been saying all along, however, is that people in far distant places and times are in exactly the same position as the faithful in Hebrews 11 were -- they did not know the name "Jesus Christ" either! But they knew God had promised a Savior, a Messiah, a Redeemer. And they also knew that this Savior would be either from God or God Himself. But unlike the faithful of Hebrews 11, those in other places and times the Promise of God was much more vague for them, having come down through the ages along with the story of Creation, the Flood, and the Fall of Man. These became half-buried in legend and additions. But, as missionaries can testify, when these people became aware of Jesus Christ, and that He was/is God, they joy has been incredible; their faith in what, to them, was an 'unknown God' vindicated.
You know something? When I first found out that the 'savages' were waiting to find out about God's Promise being fulfilled, and that they had been prepared by the Lord through all the years and cultural differences for it, I was so happy! They weren't left out! I loved God so much for that, and appreciated what He had done so tremendously, and was so grateful to Him because He really did love everyone.
But when you folks -- you Calvinists -- are shown that this is what has happened, you fight it; you seem to resent it. Why? Because it goes against your theology? Step back for a moment and see how absurd that is! To resent God because He has given every man alive, no matter where, no matter who, no matter when, the opportunity to say 'yes' to Him by presenting them with enough of the truth to cling to.
When I look at my own walk with Christ, I sort of chuckle at myself about something. I can look back ten years ago (when I had been walking with the Lord for over fifteen years by then) and think "Wow! I hardly understood a thing! It's amazing how much I thought I knew, though!"
And realize that should I live ten more years, I will look back on today and think the same.
None of us has enough knowledge of God yet to know very much. All of us have to trust with the little knowledge we do have -- and it is VERY little compared to what we will have later. So, in that sense, we are no different from those 'savages' who may have trusted in the little knowledge of the true God they also had.
Faith and trust are really only necessary when we don't have FULL knowledge. And it is quite egocentric on a theological level to think that because we have more knowledge in some areas than others do that God has not given them also access to Himself through their trust and faith in His Promise -- which IS Jesus Christ -- God Himself.
The joy and relief they experience finding out about Jesus, though, is exactly what missions are for.
And again, it might be said that there are people who live here in America or England or Australia who know the name of Jesus Christ -- as a cuss word. There the words are known, but they are farther from knowing the Truth than the savages clinging to what little they have left.
So, no, Massdak, I am not attributing salvation to 'gods' in the old legends. Not at all. But if you ever have the time to study a bit in anthropology and religious histories and legends and such, you will see that the memory of the ONE God, the Creator, is tied in every culture with the Promise of some kind of salvation which He will orchestrate. As I mentioned above, this is often half-buried in legends and additions, but the reality of the truth is still there to be seen and held to in faith. And that reality, that truth, is there by the grace of God for them to hold to. The legends never buried it completely. It was there for anyone who wanted the truth. Jesus said that he who seeks, finds. If they were seeking the truth, then God would show them Jesus, and they would find the Truth at last. Salvation is always and only in Jesus.
I think that's everything. I was so exhausted I fell asleep in the doctor's waiting room today just like all those old ladies I used to scorn when I was young and wonderful. What goes around comes around...! But it's time to quit this now tonight. I've spent well over an hour here and eaten a ton of Jordan almonds my daughter brought in, knowing it's a basic weakness of mine!
So now I am fat and tired and I've exhausted any patience any of you had with me trying to get through all this.
God bless.
Helen
[ November 23, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
npetreley, my youngest son had encephalitis when he was three. He was blind, deaf, and immobile for two weeks and then had to try to come back. He plateaued very early and has sustained massive brain damage because of the illness. He is 18 years old now and taller than I am. He can see and hear and is physically quite healthy, knowing how to raid the refrigerator, among other things! But his IQ is 19. He cannot be potty trained and so will always wear diapers. He cannot speak (which he was doing some of before the encephalitis hit).
I can see a sin nature in him. There is no doubt about that. He has thrown things, broken things, gets up and turns on the light in his room when I put him down, sneaks food (we lock everything!), etc. etc.
Can I punish him? No way. He would not connect the punishment with the crime. Probably not even as much as a nine month old baby would. Yes, he has a sin nature. Yes, he does wrong things. No, I cannot hold him accountable for them. We just have to watch him with an eagle eye!
He is the personal reason I try to make sure that when I speak of an adult I make sure people understand I mean those of reasonably functional levels.
Are we born saved? No. Are we born dead in our sins? No. We are born not yet in need of salvation, actually, for we are not yet separated from God. What other meaning can it have that the angels of the little ones always see the face of the Father in heaven? That could not possibly be true of the little ones if they were spiritually stillborn -- already dead in sin.
And the reason they are NOT dead due to their sin nature and subsequent unknown sins is because Christ was the sacrifice for unknown sins as well as everything else. Therefore they are born under His covering sacrifice, and if they die before their first conscious, deliberate rebellion, they are still under His cover. I am convinced this is what Paul was telling us in Romans 7, and what David presumed to be true regarding his own dead son as well.
So it's not a matter of losing one's salvation, but a matter of not yet being lost.
Is ignorance an excuse? Yes, it is. It does not mean you did not sin or did not break the law, but it does mean you cannot justly be held accountable for it until you do know the law. Sin and accountability are very different things. When Chris was younger, he went through a stage of sitting on things. Anything. Including a birthday cake the other kids made for me. Now maybe that wasn't a sin against God, but the other kids certainly felt it was a sin against THEM! They hollered and screamed something fierce at him, but no one could punish him. Oldest to the youngest of the others, they all knew that would have been wrong. So we took a picture of the squashed cake and saved the picture for a memory and laughter in later years.
But we have all had cake-sitting moments in our lives -- doing something we had no idea was wrong at the time and were terribly apologetic for afterwards. And what is the response from the people we offend? "That's OK. You didn't know...."
How can people be more understanding or more forgiving than God? Simple, they can't. He's the one we get it from in the first place!
Now, if you apply for, say, a driver's license (I'm using an example brought up before on another thread) and then get caught speeding in a zone you did not know the speed limit for, you are rightly accountable. Speed limit signs are posted, and you are expected to pay attention when you drive. If you are driving in another state, it is your responsiblity as a licensed driver to know that state's laws. You are also expected to know and obey the first rule of the road which is to drive no faster than the conditions warrant at any given time. These things are on the tests, and when you apply for your license you are declaring legally that you can be held accountable for traffic violations when you are the driver. So in that kind of condition it is pretty rare for a judge to allow a plea of ignorance.
But no one signed up to be a human being! No tests were taken, and no one studied or trained ahead of time. We all come into this world pretty wide-eyed and innocent in terms of knowing or not knowing a thing. As we learn, we are held accountable for what we know (or, as in the case of students, perhaps what we are supposed to know!). But, likewise, we cannot be held accountable for what we don't know.
It would be like me giving you a test on the properties of subatomic matter right here and now and holding you accountable for everything you have never learned about it!
And no, that's not different. Ignorance of someting you have never had even the chance to learn yet is a very real reason not to be held accountable for not knowing it or living in accord with knowledge of it!
Continuing -- I wanted to kick the doctor today, but mother's don't do that, do they??? Bianca's stitches are caught in deep layers of scab tissue and this is why they didn't seem to have dissolved. So the dear doctor just sort of peeled the scab off one tip of one finger stump and she cried out in pain and the tears were coursing down her face. She also is 18 years old, and not a little kid just crying. I was shocked that the doctor would do that and we both refused to let him touch the other finger. She can soak off the scabs if that is all that is wrong now. The fingers do look good, though. The scars are VERY thin, and for that we are grateful to the man.
On the way home -- and this actually ties in with what I was saying above -- after the ibuprofen took hold -- she said to me ( approximately), "He didn't know, Mom. He would never have done that if he knew what kind of pain it would give me. He's never had it happen to him."
She didn't hold him accountable because, even though he is the doctor. Her kind of surgery is rare and he had no idea, evidently, of the pain his pulling at that scab would cause her. Even in tears and pain she knew better than to figure he was accountable for the results of his actions, because he didn't know.
On to Pastor Larry,
Yes, eternal life IS knowing the Father and the Son. In fact that is one of the passages I use to try to explain that spiritual death is not spiritual unconsciousness, but rather separation from the Father and the Son.
Two things, though. First, the knowing Christ is speaking of is NOT intellectual acknowledgement, but rather the kind of knowing that He spoke of with "Depart from me, I never knew you." It is the knowing that has to do with an intimate relationship. And this kind of knowing is progressive, not a one-shot-is-everything affair. Understanding that, we know it WILL take all eternity to 'know' God. Our relationship with Him right now is barely the beginning of the knowing that will continue.
However, what I said that caused you to respond to the John 17 passage was this:
" But to say that intellectual knowledge of something about Christ is necessary to salvation is adding works. Intellectual knowledge/understanding is not necessary. Only believing on Christ is necessary."
When I said believing on Christ is necessary, I figured people would understand that at least His reality was known. The intellectual knowledge of God as Savior is indispensible. But no other knowledge or understanding is actually NEEDED after that to trust God. Salvation is not reserved, in other words, for the intellectually capable. In fact, far from it, for as has been quoted to me several times, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, beause you have hidden these tings from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." You know Jesus said that in Matthew 11. So we have to be careful about trying to pre-empt God's judgment of any human heart. THAT a person knows God saves is quite different from how much that person understands of the whole deal. THAT God promised to save man seems to be, from what I have read and studied, a promise that resonates through every culture from every time. Jesus is God. Telling folks that, and what He did -- that is the wonderful good news! God kept His promise! He did it through Himself, Jesus Christ, and here is how He did it....
When the angel announced the Good News the very first time, here is what was said:
Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy THAT WILL BE FOR ALL THE PEOPLE...
Not just some predetermined elect. All the people. And, for the life of me, I don't see how Calvinism is good news for any of the 'non-elect' or even the elect who love those who are 'non-elect.' Calvinism, on the contrary, is terrifying news to most who hear it, and this is certainly borne out in the emails and PM's I get regarding these discussions here on Baptist Board.
But the angel said the good news was for all people.
Oh, and knowing God's righteousness is not the same as knowing His law. The Israelites certainly knew THAT, and the verse quoted from Romans 10 is specifically concerning the Hebrews.
And then you quoted 2 Thess. 1:8. But that verse has a context. Paul is referring to those who are persecuting the Thessalonians. Those people certainly have a witness to God in the Thessalonian church. Therefore when Paul says they do not know God, that can be related right back to Romans 1:28 -- Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God..... Lastly, Here are the two verses which come immediately after the one you quoted:
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, BECAUSE YOU BELIEVED our testimony to you.
When you put it all together, Larry, those who do not know God have chosen not to know Him, according to Paul in Romans 1.
You then asked me, "Are you seriously suggesting that one can believe in Christ without first knowing him intellectually? In what are they believing? There must be facts and truths to be understood in order to be believed."
First of all here, in the quotes you used, you combined those referring to intellectual knowledge and relationship knowledge. They are two entirely different things. I would also suggest that the term 'knowing him intellectually' is actually an oxymoron, or self-contradicting. You can know OF someone intellectually, and yes, that is necessary. But when you know that someone, that is a relationship, not an intellectual thing. For instance, a doctor can say, "Mary? Yes, I know about her. She is my patient." He knows her history and condition physically. But if he says, "Mary? Yes I know her." he is implying a relationship of some kind -- not necessarily deep, but certainly more than knowing about her.
Knowing Jesus is the result of knowing about Him and trusting Him. You cannot know Him first.
Rev. G -- how can you ask me if I support missions and evangelism when you know very well and already responded to what I wrote before about the work my husband and I do?
Why is it that you folks ask the same questions over and over as though they have never been responded to before?
Of course I support missions and evangelism. We are on the front lines in many ways! People help support us in our work! But you already knew that!
ITM, I don't disagree with any verse you posted, certainly, and I have no knowledge of who Rahner is.
Massdak, I apologize if I seemed to exclude Christ. I most certainly could never do that. What I have been saying all along, however, is that people in far distant places and times are in exactly the same position as the faithful in Hebrews 11 were -- they did not know the name "Jesus Christ" either! But they knew God had promised a Savior, a Messiah, a Redeemer. And they also knew that this Savior would be either from God or God Himself. But unlike the faithful of Hebrews 11, those in other places and times the Promise of God was much more vague for them, having come down through the ages along with the story of Creation, the Flood, and the Fall of Man. These became half-buried in legend and additions. But, as missionaries can testify, when these people became aware of Jesus Christ, and that He was/is God, they joy has been incredible; their faith in what, to them, was an 'unknown God' vindicated.
You know something? When I first found out that the 'savages' were waiting to find out about God's Promise being fulfilled, and that they had been prepared by the Lord through all the years and cultural differences for it, I was so happy! They weren't left out! I loved God so much for that, and appreciated what He had done so tremendously, and was so grateful to Him because He really did love everyone.
But when you folks -- you Calvinists -- are shown that this is what has happened, you fight it; you seem to resent it. Why? Because it goes against your theology? Step back for a moment and see how absurd that is! To resent God because He has given every man alive, no matter where, no matter who, no matter when, the opportunity to say 'yes' to Him by presenting them with enough of the truth to cling to.
When I look at my own walk with Christ, I sort of chuckle at myself about something. I can look back ten years ago (when I had been walking with the Lord for over fifteen years by then) and think "Wow! I hardly understood a thing! It's amazing how much I thought I knew, though!"
And realize that should I live ten more years, I will look back on today and think the same.
None of us has enough knowledge of God yet to know very much. All of us have to trust with the little knowledge we do have -- and it is VERY little compared to what we will have later. So, in that sense, we are no different from those 'savages' who may have trusted in the little knowledge of the true God they also had.
Faith and trust are really only necessary when we don't have FULL knowledge. And it is quite egocentric on a theological level to think that because we have more knowledge in some areas than others do that God has not given them also access to Himself through their trust and faith in His Promise -- which IS Jesus Christ -- God Himself.
The joy and relief they experience finding out about Jesus, though, is exactly what missions are for.
And again, it might be said that there are people who live here in America or England or Australia who know the name of Jesus Christ -- as a cuss word. There the words are known, but they are farther from knowing the Truth than the savages clinging to what little they have left.
So, no, Massdak, I am not attributing salvation to 'gods' in the old legends. Not at all. But if you ever have the time to study a bit in anthropology and religious histories and legends and such, you will see that the memory of the ONE God, the Creator, is tied in every culture with the Promise of some kind of salvation which He will orchestrate. As I mentioned above, this is often half-buried in legends and additions, but the reality of the truth is still there to be seen and held to in faith. And that reality, that truth, is there by the grace of God for them to hold to. The legends never buried it completely. It was there for anyone who wanted the truth. Jesus said that he who seeks, finds. If they were seeking the truth, then God would show them Jesus, and they would find the Truth at last. Salvation is always and only in Jesus.
I think that's everything. I was so exhausted I fell asleep in the doctor's waiting room today just like all those old ladies I used to scorn when I was young and wonderful. What goes around comes around...! But it's time to quit this now tonight. I've spent well over an hour here and eaten a ton of Jordan almonds my daughter brought in, knowing it's a basic weakness of mine!
So now I am fat and tired and I've exhausted any patience any of you had with me trying to get through all this.
God bless.
Helen
[ November 23, 2002, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]
Helen, I wasn't stating that you don't support evangelism and missions. I know you do because you recently posted on that very thing and I commended you for it. The point of the question I asked is WHY support evangelism and missions if the Gospel is not essential to salvation? If people can be saved by other means (through their "own law" or their "legends", etc.), then there is really no point in sending missionaries - unless we just want these people to have "greater revelation" (and perhaps greater condemnation).
Here is the post in question:
Rahner was a Roman Catholic theologian who taught the "Anonymous Christian" theory. People are "saved" through Christ, although they don't even know it. They are saved because they act according to the revelation given them, whether it be their own conscience, own religion, etc.
Rev. G
[ November 23, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
KenH
Well-Known Member
Helen,
What you are referring to in Matthew 18:10 is not talking necessarily about those young in age, but of believers who could be compared to such because of their humbleness, and because they were despicable in the eyes of the world and maybe even in the eyes of more mature believers. Jesus is warning these more mature believers not to look down on those who are young in the faith(regardless of physical age) as these young'uns are taken great notice of in heaven.
Ken
Helen, your bitterness towards "us Calvinists" amazes me at times. When have we questioned God's preparation of people to hear the Gospel? Actually, tell me when this has been discussed at length by "us" in the past. I certainly don't remember such conversations.
When have we "resented" God's giving an opportunity to all to turn to Christ and repent of their sins? We haven't. In fact, we strongly affirm the necessity of proclaiming the Gospel to all people in all places and to call them to turn to Christ and away from their sins. Please remember that "we Calvinists" started the Modern Missions Movement.
What we HAVE done is to question the validity of your assertion that people (excluding infants, the mentally incapacitated, etc.) can be saved in a way that does not include the Gospel of Jesus Christ (salvation by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone).
Rev. G
I should never have looked to see if there were responses...
Short: Rev. G, to give people a reason for the hope they have within them is a wonderful reason to support missions. Barry and I have occasionally been a little stunned at the number of people who have a sort of vague hope that God is really real, and when Barry has presented, who come up to him and thank him so much! I'm quite sure, having read so many stories from missionaries, that they get the same reactions. Letting people know that their hopes and longings no longer have to be vague is incredibly gratifying. I still have a hard time believing God has let me in on some of this side of His work! There is no way I ever deserved this much joy and gratification!
"Anonymous Christian" thing -- were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the rest of Hebrews 11 then anonymous Christians?
Ken, I've heard that explanation of Matthew 18 before, but it doesn't fit. Jesus calls a little child to Him in verse 2. He says we must become like little children in verse 3. He tells us to humble ourselves like 'this child' in verse 4. He says whoever welcomes a little child like that welcomes Him in verse 5. In verse 6 He switches to the term 'little ones' obviously referring to the child He has called to Him and has been referring to all along. Verses 7-9 deal with casting off parts of your life that cause you to sin. In verse 10 He refers to 'little ones' again. The last time He used it was in the same speech and there is no indication He has stopped talking or has dismissed the child He called to come to Him. Therefore the context rather demands that He is talking about little children biologically, and not simply young believers.
Rev. G., I'm not bitter, but I am sometimes very angry when I see the effect the Calvinism presented on these forums has on others who end up emailing me -- and one ended up telephoning me! You -- as a group -- are spreading despair, not hope; pain, not joy. Your message seems somewhat different from the message the angel gave the shepherds one night on a hillside long ago.
and I cannot help but compare the attacks I get regarding what has been discovered in other cultures with the joy I first had when I found out about it. That's all.
Short: Rev. G, to give people a reason for the hope they have within them is a wonderful reason to support missions. Barry and I have occasionally been a little stunned at the number of people who have a sort of vague hope that God is really real, and when Barry has presented, who come up to him and thank him so much! I'm quite sure, having read so many stories from missionaries, that they get the same reactions. Letting people know that their hopes and longings no longer have to be vague is incredibly gratifying. I still have a hard time believing God has let me in on some of this side of His work! There is no way I ever deserved this much joy and gratification!
"Anonymous Christian" thing -- were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the rest of Hebrews 11 then anonymous Christians?
Ken, I've heard that explanation of Matthew 18 before, but it doesn't fit. Jesus calls a little child to Him in verse 2. He says we must become like little children in verse 3. He tells us to humble ourselves like 'this child' in verse 4. He says whoever welcomes a little child like that welcomes Him in verse 5. In verse 6 He switches to the term 'little ones' obviously referring to the child He has called to Him and has been referring to all along. Verses 7-9 deal with casting off parts of your life that cause you to sin. In verse 10 He refers to 'little ones' again. The last time He used it was in the same speech and there is no indication He has stopped talking or has dismissed the child He called to come to Him. Therefore the context rather demands that He is talking about little children biologically, and not simply young believers.
Rev. G., I'm not bitter, but I am sometimes very angry when I see the effect the Calvinism presented on these forums has on others who end up emailing me -- and one ended up telephoning me! You -- as a group -- are spreading despair, not hope; pain, not joy. Your message seems somewhat different from the message the angel gave the shepherds one night on a hillside long ago.
and I cannot help but compare the attacks I get regarding what has been discovered in other cultures with the joy I first had when I found out about it. That's all.
KenH
Well-Known Member
1) Helen, I am afraid you may have missed this verse in that passage -
Matthew 18:6(NASB)
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
2) Helen, I hope you realize that you - as a group - in your attributing to Calvinists things that we don't believe is probably a large reason for why these people are misunderstanding Calvinism. It's not Calvinism that spreads despair. It's you - as a group - railing against a gross misrepresentation of Calvinism that you - as a group - have created in your own mind because you - as a group - want salvation by your free will that is spreading despair.
I know if I believed that my salvation depended in the least on me, I would certainly be in despair.
But, hallelujah, salvation is from the Lord!(Jonah 2:9)
Ken
[ November 23, 2002, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
KenH
Well-Known Member
You keep posting this, Helen. I am sorry, but regardless of how many people regard you as a kind of "Mother Superior"
Ken
First, I thought we, as Christians, were supposed to tell others about the hope that is within us (1 Pet. 3:15).
Second, I thought that without Christ there is no hope (Romans 5:1-2).
Third, I thought missions and evangelism served to bring others to the Lord whom they do not know (John 17:3), so that they might know the hope of His calling (Eph. 1:18).
No. It deals with the present age.
You often bring up the e-mails, PMs (and now the phone call) you receive, but have you ever considered the e-mails and PMs "we" are getting? You might be surprised! I don't discuss those things outside of the forum, though, because I'm afraid they could degenerate into gossip.
I don't think we, as a group, are spreading despair and pain. I think what causes despair and pain to spread is that folks grab onto the caricatures that are presented because they of the "explanations" they receive regarding the doctrines of grace. Although, I will readily admit, that when one "sees" God for who He is - it is frightening. There is no comfort - except for through Christ alone.
Attacks? How have you been attacked? Honestly?
One more thing, is your "discovery" (experience) to be placed above Scripture? [Of course I know how you'll answer.] Then remember, the GOSPEL is the power of God unto salvation - and individuals must place their faith in Christ (explicitly, not just implicitly).
Rev. G
This doesn't surprise me at all.
I went to Fiji last year as a detour home from a business trip. While I was there, I read a book on Fiji mythology. I was amazed at the Biblical messages in some of the myths, and not only the seemingly universal flood story, but of the importance of faith in comparison to self-sufficiency. I'm pretty sure these stories were not influenced by missionaries, either. (There were some rather odd stories, too, such as one about how demons used some poor guy as a volleyball.)
Anyway, I'm not sure I'm identifying with the same feelings you had or not, but I have to admit I was pretty amazed and thrilled as I read through the book.
What I can't imagine is what you go through in the care and nurturing of your son. I thought my two kids were demanding! They often emotionally wear me out. I'm a single dad, which makes it that much more intense, but don't get the wrong idea -- these kids are answers to prayer, blessings beyond description, and I praise God daily for granting me full custody.
But my point is that if I come up empty as easily as I do with these two, I can't imagine how I'd survive in your situation without God's constant outpouring of grace. I will continue to pray for you, and thank God for providing you and your husband to take care of your son.