Eternal Security

If I am wrong ? Argue against God ? Argue against the One who does His will in the army of Heaven and Earth ?
Who can stand against His will ?
If I am wrong then that's it. Right now, I will trust Him to be faithful to His word. If I can't, then who can I trust ?

 

How can we use words of scripture which include: eternal life and everlasting life if we really mean temporary life?

The word "salvation" for the Christian is understood in 3 tenses:

1. We are saved from the penalty of sin:
when we trust Christ and we are given eternal life (John 3:16) present and permanent possession.

2. We are saved from the power of sin:
We are sealed or indwelt by the Holy Spirit who gives us power to be saved from sin on a daily basis. Not sinless perfection! However, our inner desires are to serve Christ. We are overcomers in him. (1 John 4:4) As we walk with him day by day we should become more like him.

3. One day we will be saved from the presence of sin when Christ comes (1 Thess. 4: 16-18)

 

8 Therefore (1) do not be ashamed of the (2) testimony of our Lord or of me (3) His prisoner, but join with me in (4) suffering for the (5) gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has (6) saved us and (7) called us with a holy (8) calling, (9) not according to our works, but according to His own (10) purpose and grace which was granted us in (11) Christ Jesus from (12) all eternity, - 2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB emphasis added

13 In Him, you also, after listening to (35) the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were (36) sealed in Him with (37) the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is (38) given as a pledge of (39) our inheritance, with a view to the (40) redemption of (41) God's own possession, (42) to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB

Believers have the pledge of the Spirit now, it is a deposit or down payment garunteeing that promised inheritance.

 

this was a reply to argue that 1 John 5:13 does not prove eternal security.

here then is my reply. while it is true that the passage is in present tense, what it actually drives at is emphasis on what the believer has at present. studying the syntax (it will help knowing the greek language, which i don't, for this matter) it will be seen that it says a saved person always has eternal life.

"...that ye may know that ye have eternal life..." actually says that "ye have eternal life today and when the future becomes the present, ye have eternal life then." it does not actually say nor imply salvation being present today but possibly absent in the future. what it does is assure that "ye have eternal life now."

it really takes me a very hard time explaining in the english language, but the passage is stating something at the present that will always apply in the future. this is not simply in present tense, but in "present but always applies when the future gets to be present" tense (sorry if i do not know the term ). thus, it says, you have it today, and when tomorrow comes today, it still applies.

getting in another approach now, at the moment of faith in Christ the believer gets to be imputed with Christ's rigtheousness. continuance, however, of that righteousness on the believer will not depend on the believer's continuance of faith. it solely depends on God's own faithfulness and decision regardless of the believer's obedience. and, good thing, God chose to maintain His faithfulness unconditionally!

 

So Jesus was wrong when he gave the parable of the seeds?

In only one soil does the seed mature. In only one kind of heart that accepts Jesus Christ will the belief not be in vain.

Our salvation depends on what road we are on at the end of the race, not during the race.

There is only one salvation, and it is the salvation of the soul. The soul never dies, we will merely shed our present form. Does a seed ever die once it is buried? If the seed grows, then it was never dead, even though it was buried.

It doesn't. If you are one of the elect, then you have eternal life. The Bible never promises eternal life for those who are not the elect. Eternal life is only promised to those who believe in Jesus Christ, but not in vain. The Bible says that there are those who believe in vain.

Salvation is only for the elect, not those who claim to be Christian.

Believers in Jesus Christ that do the will of God, if their belief is not in vain (at some point leave the belief and die in that state) do have the promise.

Aki,

1 John 2:16

They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

You see that there are those who appear to be apart of the Church, so much so that they appeared saved, but they ended up leaving, demonstating the fact that they were not apart of the elect. We have an imperfect view of reality.

[ August 23, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Okay Tuor I see your point. So if you are not saved yet, are you being sanctified?

 

There will be a lot of other eternally disappointed people in other Christian denominations who will have merely learned their catechism or church taught doctrine who have not fully believed and trusted in Jesus as their only hope of their salvation. Christ saves not church belief.

 

Tuor, i would like to discuss your reply but i am short of time right now.

but for now, consider this text, which shows that God maintains his faitfulness in giving salvation although believers may not!

2 Tim. 2:16-17
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

2 Timothy 2:24-26

The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

There is a mighty big "IF" in there. Notice, if they don't repent, then they won't be saved. Only time will tell if the person is apart of the elect or not.

 

In regard to those who said "Lord, Lord," he was talking about you, or those like you. For the answer of those who said "Lord, Lord" bore witness that they trusted in their "many wonderful works," not the blood of Christ, the rock.

The doing of the "will of my Father" Christ spoke about was the believing in the blood of Christ for one's salvation, not faith in the attempt to keep written commandments, or so-called "good works."

Christ told these people he NEVER knew them, thus revealing they had NEVER been saved; not that they were saved once and then fell away.

And their answer reflected as to why they were never saved, for not one time did they even mention the cross or the blood of Christ as to the reason as to why they should be allowed into heaven. Instead they mentioned the things they had done - or thought they had done - to obtain salvation through their own righteousness, through their "many wonderful works."

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the REST ye may cause the weary to REST; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves; Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a SURE FOUNDATION; he that believeth shall not make haste." - Isaiah 28:9-16

Those in Matthew 7 made a covenant with death, for by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified, and the covenant of works is the covenant of death (II Corinthians 3:7). They made lies their refuge, as man is not saved by "many wonderful works," but only by faith in the rock, the tried stone, the precious corner stone, the SURE FOUNDATION, the precious blood of Jesus Christ; the will of his Father in heaven.

Whoever you are, I hope you listen.

Let the wind blow, for this house is built upon a rock.

God bless.

[ August 27, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]

 

So, you can not only judge your own state of salvation, but the salvation of others.

Not even the Apostles could judge the salvation of others.

 

"In regard to those who said "Lord, Lord," he was talking about you, or those like you. For the answer of those who said "Lord, Lord" bore witness that they trusted in their "many wonderful works," not the blood of Christ, the rock."

You asked who Matthew 7 was referring to. I told you the truth through the Holy Spirit. I told you it was referring to you, or at least to those like you, those who trust in their own righteousness rather than the righteousness of Christ. The Holy Spirit knows who is saved and who isn't, and the "apostles" could indeed speak through the Holy Spirit, and they indeed knew who was not saved, through such insight, when it was provided unto them. For perhaps you should read passages like Galatians 2:4 and II Peter 2.

However, if you have indeed accepted Christ as your personal saviour, then you are indeed forever saved, but yet a babe in Christ. For a person can indeed be saved, yet still not understand his/her salvation and the grace which provided it. I pray you are indeed saved.

God bless.

 

How do you know what I put my trust in? According to Jesus, our actions reflect our heart. By the way, Jesus told us who he was talking about in verse 21:

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

In verses 22-23 Jesus goes on to say:

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Evidently, your understanding of who Jesus was talking about and Jesus' understanding of who he was talking about aren't the same. I'll choose to believe Jesus in this matter.

 

Through what it is you preach. For a tree is known by its fruit, and you preach works, not grace. Therefore you do not trust in Christ, but in works.

Yes, and your actions of trying to earn your way into heaven reflects a heart that does not trust in Christ, but in works; just as I have been trying to tell you.

By your own words will your be justified, and by your own words will you be condemned, just as those in Matthew 7.

Yes, and the will of the Father is to have faith in the blood of Christ, not in trying to justify yourself through attempted obedience to written commandments.

You fail to apply line upon line, and precept upon precept, thus, forgetting what manner of man you are.

Your translation of scripture is erroneous; I strongly advise you to dump such a dynamic translation, and get a word-for-word translation, as the translators of the version you are using have been influenced by Satan.

Here is the correct translation:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have WE not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils? and in thy name done MANY WONDERFUL WORKS? And then I will profess unto them, I NEVER knew you, depart from me, ye that work INIQUITY." - Matthew 7:22&23, KJV

Their own words testified as to what they trusted in, as do yours. For they trusted in themselves, their MANY WONDERFUL WORKS, not in the blood of Christ.

However, even in your poor translation the translators were not able to take away Christ saying "I NEVER knew you." So therefore I ask you: How could these people be saved once, and then fall away because they did not continue to try and obtain righteousness through attempted obedience to written commandments, if Christ said he "NEVER" knew them?

Evidently you are blind to the true evidence. You are not believing Jesus, but rather your own foolish, natural, misunderstanding, aided in its misunderstanding by Satan.

God bless.

 

They did not do the will of God, which to love God and to love our neighbors as ourselves. These people just did things that were miraculous before men. You seem to be confused between miraculous signs and God's will.

 

"Their own words testified as to what they trusted in, as do yours. For they trusted in themselves, their MANY WONDERFUL WORKS, not in the blood of Christ."

They did not do the will of God because they did not trust in Christ for their salvation, they trusted in their "MANY WONDERFUL WORKS, just as you do.

They were self-righteous, just as you appear to be.

The will of God, in accordance to salvation, is to have faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not in the attempted obedience to written commandments for one's justification:

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood... - Romans 3:25

"Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father." - Galatians 1:4

"Having predestined us unto the adoption of children BY JESUS CHRIST to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. To the praise of the glory of his GRACE, wherein he hath MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED, in whom we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the richness of his GRACE; Wherein he hath abounded toward us all wisdom and prudence; Having made known the mystery of his WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in HIMSELF. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him. In whom also we HAVE obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own WILL: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first TRUSTED IN CHRIST." - Ephesians 1:5-12

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." - I Timothy 2:4

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8&9

"NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his MERCY he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." - Titus 3:5&6

God bless.

 

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood... - Romans 3:25

I never said that Jesus blood isn't what allows the possibility of salvation. If it wasn't for Jesus' sacrifice, nobody would have a chance at salvation.

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father." - Galatians 1:4

Yes, it is God's will that the only way we can be delivered from the evil world and be found righteous is through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:5-12

Ditto

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." - I Timothy 2:4

Yes, the blood of Christ is open to all who will come.

"NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, but according to his MERCY he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour." - Titus 3:5&6

Yes, without Jesus' blood, the good works mean absolutely nothing. God will judge our hearts. Our good works are nothing more than a reflection of what is in our hearts. Only God can judge a person's heart.

If your interpretation of scripture is correct and anyone who teaches that physical actions have anything to do with our salvation is teaching Satan's lies, then Paul must be Satan's servant:

Galatians 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice Paul says "that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Evidently our actions do matter when it comes to salvation. Either that or Paul is wrong. John must also be teaching Satan's lies when he wrote:

1 John 2:2-6

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But who so keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Keeping God's commands are actions, or as you like to call them "works". According to John, if we don't keep the commands, then we don't know Jesus. Those who don't know Jesus aren't going to be saved.

1 John 3: 7-10

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


According to John, you have been deceived. "he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning." Notice that John does not say "don't be deceived, your actions are meaningless". John states that by a person's 'works' a person manefests exactly who it is the person belongs.

1 John 3:23-24

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

Grace is not a free chance for salvation, it is free salvation.

Can't argue with that.

Can't argue with that, either.

Good works mean nothing with or without Jesus' blood, in accordance to how a person is saved and/or kept saved.

False, for he does not say that by trying not to physically do them we will have or keep salvation, and this is where you keep stumbling. For you have failed to read the rest of that, because your legalistic eyes are just glued to that which you already believe with your natural mind. Read the rest of it:

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." - Galatians 5:24

I ask you: Have you ever done any of those things? And if you have, then by your own words you also will not be saved. But you say, "wait a minute, I have repented and turned from doing those things, etc."

And I say, so what? does the Bible say that you won't receive punishment for those things if you have tried to turn from doing them, and you've told God you will try not to do them in the future? or does the Bible say that you will only be forgiven for those things by faith in the blood of Christ?

How many times do you need to be told that you are not justified by attempted obedience to written commandments, but rather by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ? If you are only saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not by attempted obedience to written commandments, then you only stay saved the same way you were saved in the beginning, still not by attempted obedience to written commandments.

You are being taught a secret of God here, open your hard heart and listen.

Read Galatins 3:1-5 over and over again and see if you can figure out what the Spirit is trying to tell you. For he is trying to say the exact same things I have just said, that a person only stays saved the same way he was saved in the first place.

Are you saying that you actually keep all of his commandments, or are you saying you attempt the best you can to keep all of his commandments?

Who do you think you're fooling? If you can't fool me, do you think you can possibly fool God?

What that passage means is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the commandments, which is LOVE! For love is the fulfilling of the law; (Romans 13:10) or have you not read this?

And everyone born of the Spirit of love, the Holy Spirit, therefore keeps the rightousness of the commandments at all times, because they never stop loving even when they break the LETTER of the law!

Hello? anyone home?

Let me tell you something: A person does not keep the law when he simply keeps the letter of the law, rather a person keeps the law when he keeps the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law!

Now, after you have been told this, then I advise you to read Romans 2:17-29, over and over again, and see if you can see what I have just told you. Because it is there, rest assured, and if you ask, the Holy Spirit will open your eyes unto it.

Actually, you are the one who is deceived, for you think attempted obedience to written commandments makes you righteous. But buddy, you are in grave error. For one is only righteous through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. How many times would you like God to tell you this?

All righteous deeds (works) are simply things done through true love, and that's IT. And everyone born of the Holy Spirit is always performing these things, because they always love, because they are born of love.

Amen and amen.

God bless.

 

Let's back off the rhetoric here. If you wish to challenge someone's opinion or interpretation, do so without reference to personal issues such as blindness and hard hearts. That is completely inappropriate.

Moderator.

 

If it's inappropriate, then Christ wouldn't have done it himself. And I am not above Christ.

If you mean "inappropriate" for your tastes and whims, then that is your choice.

God bless.
_____________________

Moderator's note,

You are not Christ and your Messiah Complex will not play well with those of us who know better. By "inappropriate," I mean violating the rules of the board and the spirit of the forum. Personal attacks and questions about salvation are not peritted. You may comply or not post. Your choice.

Moderator.

_____________________

Moderator's note fo August 30, noon: For those who may have misunderstood, the reference to the "Messiah complex" was not a name or an attack. It was a reference to Ruht's claim to be acting like Christ, somethign that was clearly inconsistent with his word. When someone claims Christlikeness, it is incumbent on them to act like Christ. Uncharitable words, personal attacks, and the like are out of place no matter which side the person is on. Common decency and abiding by the rules will be enforced. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Larry

[ August 30, 2002, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]