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Wine

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Wester, Jan 31, 2002.

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  1. Wester

    Wester Guest

    Most Baptist think it wrong to drink alcoholic beverages. But then it seems that there is no prohibition about this in the Bible. In fact, Jesus turned water into wine. Shouldn't we consider this an implied approval that drinking wine is morally acceptable? Isn't the tradition against drinking wine more of a cultural tradition than a biblical requirement?
     
    #1 Wester, Jan 31, 2002
  2. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist New Member

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    Yes, it is a traditional prohibition not grounded in Scripture. One can do a lot of hermeneutical gymnastics to get to a prohibition of alchohol using Scripture, but I don't think it works. Besides, wine tastes really good ;)
     
    #2 MarciontheModerateBaptist, Jan 31, 2002
  3. Robert J Hutton

    Robert J Hutton New Member

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    Warm Christian greetings!

    Strictly speaking the Bible does not prohibit the taking of alcohol in moderation; however, we do need to bear in mind that we have a responsibility to be a good witness to the world and a good example to other Christians. If, for example, you are regularly witnessing to a person with serious drink problems, then perhaps for the witness sake it is best to abstain. Or, if you know a Christian who has struggled with an alcoholic past it may do him harm if he sees you having a drink.

    A good scripture is Romans chapter 14 v 13-17. It is important to remember that in all we do we seek the good of others rather than our own gratification. Sometimes. I believe it is right to deny ourselves legitimate pleasures for the sake of others.

    Kind regards

    RJH [​IMG]
     
    #3 Robert J Hutton, Jan 31, 2002
  4. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    Wester and paynedaniel -

    I do not have time to sit and babysit this forum but I want you both to be aware of something. THOUSANDS of people come through here a day many of them quite young. If they read your comments and find justification in getting drunk, we all know the possible consequences of this action. They could get in a wreck and die or be crippled; they could kill someone else in a wreck; a young lady could have a "mickey" slipped in her drink and be violated; etc, etc, etc.

    As the moderator of this forum, I am warning you that you are welcome to cite scriptural references to drinking and inebriation but any irresponsible postings will be erased. You have a moral obligation to the rest of this community. Please recognize that.

    - Clint
     
    #4 Clint Kritzer, Jan 31, 2002
  5. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist New Member

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    You're right, Clint. Thank you. I am in no way condoning drunkenness, but I do not think Scripture can be used as a tract against alchohol. I do not, however, recommend experiementation if there is an alchohol problem in your family, as addiction may very well be hereditary.

    Daniel
     
    #5 MarciontheModerateBaptist, Jan 31, 2002
  6. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clint Kritzer:
    Wester and paynedaniel -

    I do not have time to sit and babysit this forum but I want you both to be aware of something. THOUSANDS of people come through here a day many of them quite young. If they read your comments and find justification in getting drunk, we all know the possible consequences of this action. They could get in a wreck and die or be crippled; they could kill someone else in a wreck; a young lady could have a "mickey" slipped in her drink and be violated; etc, etc, etc.

    As the moderator of this forum, I am warning you that you are welcome to cite scriptural references to drinking and inebriation but any irresponsible postings will be erased. You have a moral obligation to the rest of this community. Please recognize that.

    - Clint    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Huh?

    Who's advocating drunkenness?

    By the way, it's a DRD now. Nobody's called it a "mickey" since the fifties and if someone is the kind of person who would do something like that to somebody else, statistics show that they would just as soon do it to someone drinking soda or tea as they would alcohol.

    The Bible doesn't prohibit alcohol. In fact, many verses speak favorably of alcohol.

    The Bible does prohibit drunkenness.

    So if your going to drink:

    1. drink in moderation

    2. know your limits

    3. be considerate of those around you

    Follow those three rules and you should stay well within Biblical guidelines.

    Mike

    http://www.keylife.org
     
    #6 Mike McK, Jan 31, 2002
  7. Wester

    Wester Guest

    Clint,

    I think your attitude shown your reply was not very good and not very christian. By your line of reasoning, you would probably blot out that portion of the bible that tells of Jesus turning water into wine. Lighten up! I don't drink much at all and I don't advocate misuse of alcohol. There was nothing in my post that implied that. What I was talking about is how tradition among Baptists is, at least in this case, not in accord with the teachings of Jesus himself. He turned water into wine. Do you accept that as an innocent act? If you do, you have no right to object to me discussing it. You are out of line in going ballistic on this subject. It is an example of how tradition rules in a case where you have little or no biblical support for your attitude.

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Wester ]

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Wester ]
     
    #7 Wester, Jan 31, 2002
  8. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    Wester, that's a particularly salient point since the particular passage you cited involves a drunk saying that the good wine isn't usually given out after the guests are already tanked, yet apparently Jesus has done just that.

    Joshua
     
    #8 Rev. Joshua, Jan 31, 2002
  9. Wester

    Wester Guest

    Joshua,

    I don't have that text in front of me, but I don't remember it saying anything about some guests being drunk. If anyone has it quickly available, please quote it. Maybe that is just an inference based on the custom of providing the best wine first.

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Wester ]
     
    #9 Wester, Jan 31, 2002
  10. aiki

    aiki Member

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    A fellow once told me that drunkenness always begins with "just one drink". It has stuck in my mind ever since.

    Paul the apostle wrote that "whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God". (1 Cor. 10:31) Tell me, how does alcoholic consumption do this exactly; especially given its poisonous chemistry, its capacity to erode ones self-control, and its addictiveness?

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: aiki ]
     
    #10 aiki, Jan 31, 2002
  11. Wester

    Wester Guest

    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Paul the apostle wrote that "whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God". Tell me, how does alcoholic consumption do this exactly; especially given its poisonous chemistry, its capacity to erode ones self-control, and its addictiveness? &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    So how do you explain the fact that Jesus turned water into wine, given your opinion above? Can you explain it? Can you find fault with an activity that Jesus participated in?

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Wester ]
     
    #11 Wester, Jan 31, 2002
  12. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Originally posted by aiki:

    A fellow once told me that drunkenness always begins with "just one drink".

    And gluttony begins with just one meal. Your point?
     
    #12 Ransom, Jan 31, 2002
  13. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Paul the apostle wrote that "whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God". (1 Cor. 10:31) Tell me, how does alcoholic consumption do this exactly; especially given its poisonous chemistry, its capacity to erode ones self-control, and its addictiveness?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    How do you justify eating bacon on the basis of the above?

    Daniel
     
    #13 MarciontheModerateBaptist, Jan 31, 2002
  14. aiki

    aiki Member

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    Wester, I was pretty sure I had asked a question. But, you haven't answered it.

    Hmmm... That's true, isn't it? Gluttony does start as you say. Great, now I'm going to be all anxious about eating! :D
     
    #14 aiki, Jan 31, 2002
  15. aiki

    aiki Member

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    P.D. I don't eat bacon -- too greasy, ugh!

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: aiki ]
     
    #15 aiki, Jan 31, 2002
  16. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua <img src=/cjv.jpg>

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    John 2:10 ..."Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now."
     
    #16 Rev. Joshua, Jan 31, 2002
  17. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer Active Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> He turned water into wine. Do you accept that as an innocent act? If you do, you have no right to object to me discussing it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You will notice I did not delete any of your post. The setting of the Biblical stories is in an arid land where wine was a preserved beverage. We do not need to rely on alcohol is a preservative, they did.
    I issued this warning for good reason. Do not feign ignorance. Alcohol destroys marriages, causes fatal diseases, bruises the spirits of children in a drunken family, incites violence, and ruins lives.
    My warning was issued to let you all know that all of you have a designation of "member" next to your name on this board. as such, you all have a responsibility to be an example to the world and to this community.
    I am not a censor and I will delete only for the sake of good taste or the representation that this board puts forward to the world. I was asked to be a moderator for that reason - to moderate.

    - Clint
     
    #17 Clint Kritzer, Jan 31, 2002
  18. Optional

    Optional New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rev. Joshua Villines:
    John 2:10 ..."Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here.
    Rev., Jesus still made the wine. What is your take on that, since the guests were "well drunk" as my version puts it?
     
    #18 Optional, Jan 31, 2002
  19. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    There have been several good posts here about the role of wine in the Bible - referencing both the OT and the NT. For the sake of argument let us summarize what each testament is saying about wine. ;)

    The Old Testament is often talking about wine and strong drink (saturdated alcohol). The wine was for drinking, but not quite the way you would think. According to rabbinical practice, they mixed one part wine and four part water when they were preparing a drink. You can confirm this with any rabbinical school of theology. The strong drink or solid alcohol was used to treat wounds and in general for sterilization.

    As you know both the OT and the NT is full of warnings about being filled with wine. The NT further encourages us to rather be filled with the Holy Spirit. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit... (Ephesians 5:18)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you do this, you will be blessed! End of sermon. [​IMG]

    Now, it is not the intention of the Baptist Board to give credence to every whim about the use of alcohol and whether the Bible forbids or condon such a thing. This board is here to build the body of Christ via the wide world of net. If you have something to edify the body with, your posts are welcome - othewise if you are here to make a mockery of God's Words then according to the Scriptures you are full of wine... for the Bible says, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wine is a mocker, and strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
    #19 Barnabas H., Jan 31, 2002
  20. Wester

    Wester Guest

    Joshua,

    The King James version has a slightly different tranlsation which does not necessarily imply drunkenness:

    When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants
    which drew the water knew) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
    -------------------------------------------
    Clint,

    Your claim that the absence of preservatives in biblical times justified the use of alcohol then is a weak argument. First of all, the guests at the marriage feast were not using it as a perservative, they were drinking it. And you could just as easily say that they should have drunk water instead. So in using that argument you are having to strain really hard to find some way to justify drinking alcohol then and condemning it now. I have heard such arguments before. It is simply a way to get around the obvious fact that there are cultural differences that influence behavior now that are not well grounded in the bible. I have to wonder if Jesus thought drinking wine was wrong, why didn't he ever discuss it and explain why he was willing to make wine? Don't you see my point? I agree that alcoholism is damaging and that smoking is damaging. I am just trying to point some theological inconsistencies here. It seems to me that Jesus took a much more moderate position on this matter than you do, Clint.
    I suspect that if someone brought wine to your party, you would recoil in horror.

    [ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Wester ]
     
    #20 Wester, Jan 31, 2002
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