Murder victims & the time to die

John3,
When I lost a baby Psalm 139 was such a comfort to me knowing that God already knew just how long that child would live. He knows how long I will live as well as every other human that he has created.
Some people are taken sooner than seems fair but God already knew how many days that person had before they were even born.

HCL

 

Psalm 139:13-16
For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me , when as yet there were none of them.

Once again, God is completely sovereign apart from any works of man.

Let me ask a question:

Those who fail at suicide or "escape" death. Should they have died or was that God saying that inspite of their efforts, He determines when the breath is gone?

 

If God sovreignly declares that a two year old will be in heaven, it in no way takes the responsibility for how they died off of another person.
Gina

 

Gina, that is clearly understood. The point is though that a person's days are numbered before they come into the world. When their day comes, they will die. In theory, if not one way, then another.

 

Btw John, I wouldn't expect this thread to be too long. It deals with the sovereignty of God and not the sovereignty of man. Unfortunately, too many believe in the latter.

 

The classic example of God's soveriegn will is the WTC. There were survivors, one man who "rolled" down the stairs as the towers collapsed, and lived. This situation was an act of murder, yet some survived.

God knows our appointed time, does He also know the way we will die? Or are we too close to Calvinistic thought for that?

 

I am wondering why, then, we bother with the homeless who die frozen on streets, or with children starving and sick in other parts of the world. After all, aren't they destined to die at these times anyway, and aren't their eternal destinies already chosen -- Calvinistically?

 

It's something we just don't understand I'm afraid, but it is obvious that we should protect others and that murder or providing negligent care that can lead to death is morally and scripturally wrong.
Kinda like watching a 3d movie without the glasses. We're missing a whole dimension of understanding that just isn't possible to see until we get our new vision.
Waiting patiently....
Gina

 

Helen, I am disappointed. You know better than to smugly present this line of thinking.

We care for others for the same reason we preach the gospel. We preach the gospel so that the elect will believe. Explain how this contradicts God's sovereignty since it only does in your way of viewing sovereignty.

We care for others for the same reason that Paul "endured all things for the sake of the elect". We don't know who the elect are. We don't know when a person is going to die. Therefore, we preach to all. Therefore, we demonstrate mercy and compassion on as many as possible. Our role is not to figure it all out. Our role is to show Christ superior than everything else to the entire world.

You seem to think that Sovereignty means that people sit on their rears. God has ordained the means and the end.

[ December 23, 2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: PreachtheWord ]

 

Two works I think you should seriously consider, and then enter into this debate.

The Bondage of the Will, by Martin Luther, and The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink.

Basically what you are saying, Helen, is this: God is not in control. I don't know how you can have any freedom or assurance knowing that your prayers are being directed to someone who cannot bring about his will to pass.

[ December 23, 2002, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

What was said above: God knows, we don't. For all we know, we're the "angel" God sent to save that person's life.

When the person does die--that's the appointed time talked about in Psalm 139, not five minutes or even 5 seconds before.

 

God has given me a love and caring for people who are most probably not Calvinistically elect. Why would God give me a love for them if He does not love them?

It's not a matter of anyone here being disappointed in me! I don't agree with the concept of pre-creation election and that is pretty well known by anyone who has read any of my posts for any amount of time, so why be disappointed if I am consistent?

Nor is it a matter of God not being sovereign. It is a matter of there being a dimension He has allowed which we may or may not understand. I truly do believe that in John 3:16 when it says God so loved the world that that is exactly what is meant. I truly do believe that in 1 John 3 when we read that God is not willing that one should perish but that all should come to repentance, that that is exactly what is meant. I truly do believe that abortion is not part of God's will regarding a human life.

And I truly do believe that God has allowed us freedom of choice regarding obedience to Him and to the consciences He gave us.

I cannot pretend that I do not care about suffering if the person is not 'elect'. I do care. God has given me a tender heart in that respect. Why would He do that if He did not care about them?

What I am reading here from some is implying that all those hundreds of baby boys who were slaughtered by Herod when Christ was a baby were supposed to be slaughtered. If that were true then no one would have a right to be horrified.

No Christian should be at all upset about 6 million Jews and a few million others slaughtered by Hitler and Co.? After all, they were supposed to die at that time and in that way anyway!...

I reject that with every atom of my being. The God I know has a character of love and compassion and caring along with justice. The God I know said to let the little children come to Him, and He was not referring to "by means of slaughtering them." Nor did He say "let the elect of the children come to Me..."

The idea that the murder victim should not be dead but that God allowed it is not an oxymoron. There is only One who was born to die, and die He did, horridly, on the cross, after immense suffering and humiliation. But He died because the rest of us were born to live. We can choose to die, and we can choose to kill, but we were born to live and to care for life -- after all, isn't that part of taking dominion of the world?

God is sovereign absolutely. And in the end He will fix everything and help us understand everything. But to demand that our understanding must be the judge of what He is doing now is arrogant in the extreme. And in the meantime, His perfect will and His permissive will are two different things. He can permit the murder without it being in His perfect will that it should have happened.

To claim anything else is, as I see it logically, to claim that God is directly responsible for sin and evil. And that I also reject.

 

Helen, deal with the original Scripture. Btw, if God is not completely perfect in all attributes, then he has strengths and weaknesses. God does not have either. He is supremely perfect in every way. Any other view is idolatrous. I am sure you did not mean it that way.

 

Let me ask Paul.

PtW: Paul, what would you say?

Paul: I endure all things for the sake of the elect.

PtW: Paul, you don't know who the elect are?

Paul: That is why I endure all things for the sake of the elect.

PtW: Oh, okay. Gotcha!

 

He does not have weaknesses, but He has chosen to given us freedom of will. His perfection extends above and beyond anything we could ever choose.

And I am dealing with Bible, as well as with my own experience with the God I know and who indwells my by His precious Holy Spirit.

If you wish to call me an idolator, that is something you will have to answer to God for. He knows me.

 

The disappointment comes from your continued misrepresentation of biblical sovereignty and your purposeful attempts to make it seem stupid because you don't understand it.

 

Helen, we are all born to die. That is the one common denominator. This is what drove Solomon in Ecclesiastes.

I think we need to accept the way God has planned everything. The thing we need to accept is that He knows that babies will be murdered, and that their time was appointed. On the other hand, we don't know the appointed time. When these deaths occur, we need to focus on the effects and the reactions. People die, sometimes in massive numbers, but to dwell on the whys is the wrong focus. All should bring Him the glory, in which He well deserves all the glory. Innocents die, but He requires our praise for all.

 

All the while ignoring plainly what Paul said in Romans 8:9-13 that a lost person cannot submit to the law of God.