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Do not judge but expel the wicked

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Lorelei, Oct 9, 2001.

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  1. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    This has come up in another thread and I would like to take the personal aspect out of it and focus just on this one topic. Not referring to any individual or any specific sin in and of itself, but in general, what does the Bible say about Judging Others.

    I know that others think that I am guilty of this and that I judge Christians according to thier works. There are some that say that no one ever has the right to say whether or not a person is a Christian. I disagree. Somewhere out there is a balance between "judging" and the command to "expel" wicked men from among us.

    I believe there is a reason that we are told how to identify who is indeed a Christian. How can we "watch out for false prophets" and "expel them from among us" if we can not say that they are indeed a liar? Where is the balance?

    Here are some scriptures that I would like to see addressed. I would really like some insight into others points of view on this.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 7:1
    "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
    2
    For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
    3
    "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
    4
    How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
    5
    You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    How does the verse above stand up against these verses below?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 7:15
    "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
    16
    By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
    17
    Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18
    A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
    19
    Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20
    Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    21
    "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
    22
    Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
    23
    Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 5:9
    I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
    10
    not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.
    11
    But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
    12
    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
    13
    God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew 18:15
    "If your brother sins against you,[2] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
    16
    But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that `every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[3]
    17
    If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I would love to see some healthy debate on the topic. Let us try to attack the issue at hand not each other.

    ~Lorelei
     
    #1 Lorelei, Oct 9, 2001
  2. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    Lorelei:

    None of these Scriptures are in contradiction. The command in Matt 7 is not to refrain from judging, but rather to refrain from hypocritical judging . Do not judge another when you are harboring sin which is equal to or even worse than your brethren's. Notice verse 5: "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

    First clean up your own act; then you may rebuke a brother.

    [ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
    #2 Chris Temple, Oct 9, 2001
  3. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    It is easy to judge the sin of someone else, It makes one feel as if their own sin isn't so bad, 'because well look at him, at least I don't do that'.
    Only God knows a persons heart. Just because a person sins does not mean they are not a christian. According to the Bible we all sin. And God gave us instructions on what to do about it, 1John1:9.
    When you get rid of your own sin, then you can cast the first stone. But remember Jesus said,'he who is without sin'.
     
    #3 donnA, Oct 9, 2001
  4. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    The scriptures presented are all good scriptures, yet they don't tell us to judge on if a person is a Christian or not, just judging fruits. These still do not say we have the right to judge a person on their salvation, just on the fruits they show.

    The real way to tell if someone is actually a child of God according to the bible is "You will know you are my disciples if you have love one for another". The only one who can judge on the basis of salvation will remain to be God himself and no one else.

    Sue
     
    #4 myreflection26, Oct 9, 2001
  5. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Myreflection,
    I agree.
     
    #5 donnA, Oct 9, 2001
  6. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    The Bible tells us not to judge just yet. There will be a time when the righteous will judge the world with the Lord. But in the mean while the Bible urges us to discern & examine! These we can do, and as you have so eloquently stated Lorelei, we can judge the fruits. Amen? [​IMG]

    P.S. How are you and the baby coming along? Is the time drawing nigh? You are still in our prayers! :cool:
     
    #6 Barnabas H., Oct 9, 2001
  7. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Katie,

    I am not talking about some sin that someone may be struggling with, but rather when a person begins to teach that sin or false doctrine as truth. Believe me, I do not feel better about myself when I think someone is being misled and may be leading others astray to believe the same thing. I don't go around telling all my brothers and sisters in Christ everything that "I" think they are doing wrong. But when they teach that wrong as right, then I feel the need the correct them. Does that make sense?

    Sue,

    You mentioned that we can't judge salvation but just their fruits and you are right, but what is the purpose of judging thier fruits? Isn't it so that "we" will know if they are our brother or not?

    You mentioned that we will know our brother if they show love one for another. Which of the following shows true love?

    1) Teaching a false doctrine as truth
    2) Keeping a brother from following a false doctrine.

    If they are preaching or teaching something that is not truth, then they are not showing love for thier brothers, and may not actually be a brother as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5.

    Barnabas,

    I think you summed it up best! It's all in the words! We are not to judge but to discern and examine. That makes perfect sense! It's just hard to explain that to someone who is saying that I am being "judgemental".

    I just want to be able to "define" that line and make sure that I am not indeed crossing over it.

    ~Lorelei

    PS. I am due in 2 more weeks. Believe me, I am waiting and not so patiently! *hehe* If I disappear for a few days, I just may be in the hospital, but I will post as soon as I get back!!! Thanks so much for keeping us in your prayers! Can never have too many of those! [​IMG]
     
    #7 Lorelei, Oct 10, 2001
  8. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Lor,

    No judging fruits is not for telling who is our brother or not. The fruits we are judging are fruits of the spirit which are love, joy, peace, longsuffereing, gentleness, meekness uhhhh ok, I can't remember them all lol uggg anyway many unsaved people have these fruits too.

    It really isn't in our position to say if an individual is really saved, we might be able to sense in our spirit something is different about them, but to actually judge their salvation no we cannot do, why? Because we cannot see their hearts, only God can see their hearts so it's impossible for us to truely judge this.

    Obviously we can tell if one is teaching false doctrine, but in showing love to that person or to the person hearing false doctrine, you could share truth with them but loving them for real is to pray for them because we are not able to change anyone, the Holy Spirit can though and more so we have a tendancy to desire to change folks in a fleshly manner rather than letting God deal with the situation.

    Point truth out to that person, but if they don't recieve it well, let it alone because they are not ready to hear it and instead pray for that person. God knows the perfect timing.

    Sue
     
    #8 myreflection26, Oct 10, 2001
  9. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The scriptures presented are all good scriptures, yet they don't tell us to judge on if a person is a Christian or not, just judging fruits. These still do not say we have the right to judge a person on their salvation, just on the fruits they
    show.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Sue, the Scripture presented are more than good scripture they speak plainly that your
    understanding is wrong. What is the purpose of judging fruits? To know if the fruit bearer is rotten or not. We can’t simply go on what someone claims, Charles Manson claims to be a child of God but he is not. What about Ted Bundy or Jeffery Domer? How about bin Laden? These men are obviously lost because their fruits plainly say they are. Then we move into the realm of religion. Just because they hide behind the disguise of religious terms does not mean they are Christians. And just because they seem spiritual does not mean they are Christians. The fruits of some of the religious organizations are cultic and are not of God, so we can then determine that the people involved are lost.

    The passage in Matthew 7 is often misunderstood by people. Chris Temple was right in what he posted. We are not told not to judge but we are told how to judge.

    And consider this passage:

    2 Cor 6:14-16
    Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and
    wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a
    believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between
    the temple of God and idols?
    NIV

    We must be able to determine who the unbelievers are, before we can know not to be
    yoked together with them. And this context is speaking of working with those in the work
    of God.

    Just because they claim to be of God, does not mean they are of God:

    2 Cor 11:14-15
    And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
    KJV

    Lorelei In reading a lot of your post, I have not seen any wrong judging of you. Your post show that you care about the truth of God’s Word and want to expose those
    who believe and teach false doctrines. Usually when those who are faced with the reality of Scripture, and it goes against what they want to believe, they by default cry, “you are judging me!”. :( Keep up the good work. ;)

    With love,

    Chet
     
    #9 Chet, Oct 10, 2001
  10. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Sue,

    Do you have ANY scripture to back up what you just said?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
    Lor,

    No judging fruits is not for telling who is our brother or not. The fruits we are judging are fruits of the spirit which are love, joy, peace, longsuffereing, gentleness, meekness uhhhh ok, I can't remember them all lol uggg anyway many unsaved people have these fruits too.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    For what purpose? We judge whether or not a persons has fruits...but why??? We are not to judge what the fruit is, we are told that. We are to judge our brothers by thier fruit. If it is "not for telling who is our brother or not", then what is it for?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    It really isn't in our position to say if an individual is really saved    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    How is it not our position when God says it is? 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 says we are not to judge those outside the church but we are to judge those inside it. And we are to expel anyone that is immoral, unrepentant and continueing in sin, and those teaching false doctrines (see verses above).

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    we might be able to sense in our spirit something is different about them    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Where do you get that? It isn't based on what we "sense" we feel, but on the Word of God, and the Word of God seems clear to me in how we determine this.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
    but to actually judge their salvation no we cannot do, why? Because we cannot see their hearts, only God can see their hearts so it's impossible for us to truely judge this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    We aren't "judging" on what we can not see, we are judging them by the fruits which we can. Living in sin and teaching lies about the Word of God are not proper fruits! Again, I am not talking about someone who is "struggling" with a sin, but those who are professing that sin to be acceptable, or professing a lie to be Truth and refuse to see the Truth in the Word no matter how many times you show them.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    Obviously we can tell if one is teaching false doctrine, but in showing love to that person or to the person hearing false doctrine, you could share truth with them but loving them for real is to pray for them because we are not able to change anyone, the Holy Spirit can though and more so we have a tendancy to desire to change folks in a fleshly manner rather than letting God deal with the situation.     <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    That sounds really nice but it goes against the teachings of the Word of God! We can tell they are teaching false doctrines because the Word of God tells us how. We should show love to that person, you are right, but again..what is love? Love is NOT what you are suggesting here. Why? Because you are going to allow this person to continue teaching false doctrines and that person will lead many to believe it and those people will be led astray. You have just done them much harm!

    Love is not all "touchy feely" all the time, love can hurt, but it is what is best! Prayer, yes we must pray for them, but that is not enough, not when we are given clear instructions on what we can and must do. Remember, we aren't just praying for "them" but for all who will hear them and believe them. We have to "stop" them otherwise many more will be led astray.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:

    Point truth out to that person, but if they don't recieve it well, let it alone because they are not ready to hear it and instead pray for that person. God knows the perfect timing.

    Sue    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    The Holy Spirit can do much more then we! But the Holy Spirit is alive in His believers and through the instruction of the Word and the leading of the Holy Spirit we are told what to do. We are NOT told to leave it alone and just let God handle it. Where do you get that???

    God can handle it on His own, God can handle everything on His own, but he opted not to do that. Just as he sent the prophets of the OT and the Apostles of the NT and gives each believer the Holy Spirit to indwell them and lead them to all Truth, he chooses to use us and wants us to be faithful and do what he has shown us to do.

    Let me rephrase the question a bit:

    Which of the following shows true love?

    1) Allowing someone to teach a false doctrine as truth
    2) Keeping a brother from following a false doctrine

    Again, we can't worry about how that one individual feels. If we offer the truth in love and follow the instructions given in the Word of God, then if they refuse to see the error or their ways according to the Word of God, they must be "expeled" from among us. Not to be mean to them but to keep them from turning others away from the Truth. It is for the love of the whole that you do this.

    Does not one rotten apple spoil the bunch? God wants us to keep that from happening.


    Chet,

    Amen! The scriptures you added are indeed more proof of what the Word of God wants us to do!

    You know, the more I study the Word the more I see this confirmed. It's funny actually. I can find a post by myself here (if I wanted to dig back that far) where I said I would "never judge another person". That is what started me on this! Some people made some excellent points about how we are to "judge" some things just not be judgemental and gave me scripture to back it up. (Hey get that everyone...someone actually listened to what you had to say!! And even more amazing then that, it made a difference!!! *hehe*) I then had to compare that with the verses I had always held to that said not to judge. The thing was, I was referring to Christians who were struggling with things, but not necessarily just disobedient to the Word of God. In those cases I will still do the same, I will just keep encouraging them to study the Word and God will work in thier life on the specific sin. But when they refuse to even look at what the Word says, what do you do then? I had never really thought about it like that before then!

    I don't mind admitting I was wrong, as long as the reason I changed my mind was based on the Word of God rather then empty words. Maybe I am overzelous about trying to get people to see the Truth, but I can't just sit around and listen to them tell lies and not defend the Word of God can I? Someone else may be listening and if they aren't shown the truth, they may just fall for that false doctrine. Didn't the webmaster say 25,000 people may read one post in a year!?!?

    The part I hate the most is the method in which we have to share the truth here. I do not get "emotional" when posting a lot of my posts, yet they seem to be taken as though I was "yelling" or "angry" or "rude". If you could sit and talk with me face to face you would see the calmness, yet firmness of my beliefs as I share them. You would see that I am listening to what others have to say with real interst and that I have an attitude of love towards everyone here. But my "love" isn't the quiet type.

    Anyway, thanks for the encouraging words and the understanding of the Word that you seem to have! [​IMG]

    Chris,

    I have responded to each person here and I did not mean to over look you! You did make an excellent point! I had actually thought of that when posting my original post, but did not mention it because it was the first time I really noticed the emphasis on the "then you will see clearly". It was like your post was confirmation to that "thought" that popped in my head when reading it! I love it when God's Word does that! You read something a million times over then suddenly BAM you see something you didn't really see before! That has been happening a lot lately, it's so neat! :D

    ~Lorelei
     
    #10 Lorelei, Oct 10, 2001
  11. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    Lorelei said:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't mind admitting I was wrong, as long as the reason I changed my mind was based on the Word of God rather then empty words. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Can this be posted in BIG, BOLD 48 POINT FONT somwhere on the home page, as an admonishment to all of us?? :D

    [ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
    #11 Chris Temple, Oct 10, 2001
  12. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Chris,

    That was too funny! And no you can't!!! *hehe* I admitted it, but must ya make me remember it?? *LOL* ;)

    Now let me show ya!! :D

    Ok, here it is ya'll, the moment we have all been waiting for proof that I am really seeking Truth here, proof that I DO listen! And especially proof that I WAS WRONG!!! EEK!!!

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:

    I still will never sit on judgement of someone

    ~Lorelei    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    From the following thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000055

    (Do they have an emoticon for eating your own words???)

    Now, I think it would be fittin' for the person that made this all possible to get some kind of prize..don't ya think???

    *drum roll*

    For the person that made this all possible, for the one who stood up for truth even though I didn't think it was too nice at the time, for the person I have now come to respect greatly, look up to and admire (Well, there are many of you that fit that description...this one just happens to be the one that helped me to see the "light" on THIS issue...and there are still others where we disagree)....

    *opens envelope*

    And the winner is....

    D H K !!!!!

    DHK, I hereby reward you with...um...well...I did say prize? Yeah, prize, um...
    :eek:

    ~Lorelei

    (Maybe DHK won't read this thread and notice anything at all!! :D )

    Hmm..wonder if I should start another thread for this, for I actually found another post of mine that I totally turned my opinion around on too. Of course then I would need another prize..arghh.

    Disclaimer: Though DHK and others have been the means by which I have learned the Truth about certain things, it was them showing me in the Word of God that actually persuaded me. It was God's Word that did the changing, they were just the instrument that God used to help me find it! I thank the Lord for people like you!!
     
    #12 Lorelei, Oct 11, 2001
  13. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    PS. It took me almost 2 hours to find that thread!!! Do you know that the search doesn't work if they moved the thread after it was started??? Arghhh!!!! :mad:

    ~Lorelei
     
    #13 Lorelei, Oct 11, 2001
  14. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    Lorelei,

    Absolutely wonderful post!! ;) All of them! This is one of the best thread I have read.

    And let me say, you sure made me smile from ear to ear. I still can't wipe this grin of my face. :D :D :D :D :D
     
    #14 Chet, Oct 11, 2001
  15. Cherry5

    Cherry5 New Member

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    Lorelei,
    It happens that I know DHK personally; I'll let him know what you wrote. And I believe that he will be the first one to acknowledge that it was the Word of God that convinced you. It takes a bold person to admit they were wrong about something, and I admire you for it (even if I don't have the faintest idea what you were referring to).
    The past couple of days I've been reading scads of posts on the BB and I've gotten convicted of my own sad lack of Biblical knowledge. So, now I'm off to study and make up for my ******ity in the things of God.
     
    #15 Cherry5, Oct 11, 2001
  16. myreflection26

    myreflection26 New Member

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    Lor,

    I can see we have our lines crossed a bit.

    I'm talking about not being able to judge the unsaved meaning those outside the church which is what 1 Cor. 5: 12-13 actually says.

    If you are speaking of judging the fruits of those teaching then I would agree with you on this such as the following.

    Pastor
    Teacher
    Deacon
    Evangelist

    and anyone who has a leadership position in the church and is teaching false doctrine as well as those who are teaching or living wrongly in the church as pew members. I don't believe we are to avoid them unless they've been confronted and will not accept discipline then thats when we just pray for them. 2 Thes. 3:14

    My point was that we are not supposed to judge fruits to find salvation as the fact is many non christians have those same fruits. At this moment, my brain is a bit fried but I'll do some research to find some good scriptures regarding this.

    Anyway, if it is concerning one who is in the church and teaching wrong gospel or false doctrine then I agree stop that person. You can't look at someone though and declare by fruits or lack therof on if salvation is present with them or not, God alone can know this.

    Sue
     
    #16 myreflection26, Oct 11, 2001
  17. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Cherry,

    Thanks so much! The reason I decided to make such a big deal about it was that I am sure DHK has no idea of what an impact he made. I never told him and he probably doesn't even remember the thread that well! It's one of those things that happens over time from a seed he dropped and didn't realize it was even planted!! I thought it might be encouraging for him and others to know that they actually are doing some good, so never give up!!!

    I sure know how you feel about the lack of knowledge. This board has made open my Bible more and more each day and I love it for it!! People are too quick to point out the negative, but how can something that makes me study God's Word be a bad thing! It can't! Keep on studying!!! I think you are very wise for admitting you don't know it all especially since you not only know where to look you actually spend time looking! Stay in the Word, you can't go wrong there!

    Your post was such a blessing..thanks so much!!

    ~Lorelei
     
    #17 Lorelei, Oct 11, 2001
  18. Cherry5

    Cherry5 New Member

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    Lorelei,
    I read your last post earlier, then went upstairs to cogitate on it for a bit. I agree about the negativity on the Board. That's why I rarely post. (At least I've made it past the almost sacred milestone of 50! :rolleyes: )

    Uh oh, now I've lost my train of thought, so I guess I'll go upstairs and cogitate some more.

    Thanks for the encouragement. I've got the flu and was feeling down (you know, like flu sufferers have a tendency to do). Well, anyway, the kids will have some fun at my expense...I lost my voice today. It's one of my annual "rituals," this laryngitis thing, and the kids just love it. :eek:

    [ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Cherry5 ]
     
    #18 Cherry5, Oct 13, 2001
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