Are these things we should be thinking about...

Yes, we should be debating, discussing and studying it. This is one way we sharpen our knowledge. BUT, brethren who believe that salvation is completely a work of God, without the efforts of man or admixture of works, should not fall out over minute details of just how God accomplishes this. God's election to grace is so sublime that, though we should try to understand it to the very best of our ability, we should not be at all surprised that our little pea brains can't comprehend it all. I freely admit that I cannot reconcile in my own mind all that I think I believe about election, predestination, redemption, regeneration, and calling.

[ December 11, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter III

Of God's Decree

VII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election;[18] so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise,[19]reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility,[20]diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.[21]

18. I Thess. 1:4-5; II Peter 1:10
19. Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33
20. Rom. 11:5-6, 20
21. Luke 10:20

 

London Confession:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post, Chris. And I would like to add that the special prudence and care is often what is missing from the "arguments" concerning God's work of grace in salvation.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rlvaughn:
London Confession:


Good post, Chris. And I would like to add that the special prudence and care is often what is missing from the "arguments" concerning God's work of grace in salvation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I quite agree. Although I believe Calvinism to be the clearest articulation of biblical soteriology, we must be careful not to try to explain all things in the mind and will of God.

 

But to limit God to our understanding is dangerous. It is not what the Bible says that people disagree about here, it is the implication.

Just because God has chosen us doesn't mean that somehow we don't have a choice in the matter.


God is beyond our understanding. This much I think both Free Will and Predestination people can agree upon.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
Just because God has chosen us doesn't mean that somehow we don't have a choice in the matter. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have no choice in our election. However, the elect choose to repent and believe as a result of their regenerate wills. God is so satisfyingly glorious that when our blindness is cured, we have no other choice but to flee to him in love and wonder.

John 9:35-38 (ESV)
Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" [36] He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?" [37] Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you." [38] He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

 

But God is outside of time. It is totally possible to know the outcome of a game played yesterday.

As I said earlier, God surpasses our logic.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
But God is outside of time. It is totally possible to know the outcome of a game played yesterday.

As I said earlier, God surpasses our logic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God's ways are not our ways, yet God is totally logical, as He is The Perfect Creator of order. And he has chosen to give us his word which clearly articulates his plan and progression of time in time. If God had not ordained the exact events to occur in history, it would not occur, Christ would not have been born, and he would not have a perfect redemptive plan.

Also the idea of God "foreknowing" what will occur is not a caveat for those who deny predestined events, for if God knows what will happen, nothing man can do in his own will can then alter what will happen.

 

I agree that God has ordained the events that have happened and will happen and that are happening at this moment. But to say that there is no possible way that we as individuals have any possible free will to choose is jumping to a conclusion.

If God was limited and must work in ways that we understand, then yes I would say that there is no possible way that we can have free will if God is in total control. But as I said before, this would be limiting God's power to our understanding of what is possible.

Saying that God has chosen His elect and therefore individuals have no free will is putting God's powers into a human box.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
I agree that God has ordained the events that have happened and will happen and that are happening at this moment. But to say that there is no possible way that we as individuals have any possible free will to choose is jumping to a conclusion.

If God was limited and must work in ways that we understand, then yes I would say that there is no possible way that we can have free will if God is in total control. But as I said before, this would be limiting God's power to our understanding of what is possible.

Saying that God has chosen His elect and therefore individuals have no free will is putting God's powers into a human box.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly, free will is a myth No one hsa a free will; their will is enslaved to their nature. Men are free agents, meaning they can choose actions according to their nature. Yet even these free choices are directed by God. A mystery? Yes. But true nonetheless.

The only way we put God in a box is by saying that he must wait and respond the the free actions of sinful, finite men.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


We have no choice in our election. However, the elect choose to repent and believe as a result of their regenerate wills. God is so satisfyingly glorious that when our blindness is cured, we have no other choice but to flee to him in love and wonder.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hypothetically, What if "the elect" should choose NOT to repent?

buster

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


The only way we put God in a box is by saying that he must wait and respond the the free actions of sinful, finite men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I never said God had to do anything. You are the one defining how things must be. In doing so you are the one putting God in a human box.

My point is that anything is possible with God.

Then again, if you don't believe this, then you would believe that you can have God all figured out.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buster:
Hypothetically, What if "the elect" should choose NOT to repent?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The elect will not choose not to repent. Part of election is the enablement of the will so that man will certainly choose to repent.

Your question is like asking what if 2+2 didn't equal 4. It is an exercise in futility.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


The elect will not choose not to repent. Part of election is the enablement of the will so that man will certainly choose to repent.

Your question is like asking what if 2+2 didn't equal 4. It is an exercise in futility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That doesn't sound like any definition of choice I've ever heard. How exactly do you define the word "choice"?

As I mentioned on another thread, I am in agreement with E. Y. Mullins, who, in his "Axioms of Religion", states under the moral axiom, "without freedom there is no responsibility". I take that to mean that if I am not free to choose a path of action I cannot be held resposible for the action or lack of action that I take. In a soteriological sense, God cannot hold me responsible for anything in which I have no choice. I think we get onto a slippery slope when we begin to accept the "total depravity" tenet. We are all sinful (the Bible tells me so), but at what point do we become responsible for our sin. My Southern Baptist Church believes (and I agree) that children below the age of accountability are "safe". If they die before they reach an accountable age they will go to heaven. At that point at which they become aware that they can make choices about right and wrong (and we always choose wrong) then they must accept Jesus' free gift of grace in order to obtain salvation. In other words "without freedom" and understanding "there can be no responsibility".

Thanks again for all your input.

buster

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buster:
That doesn't sound like any definition of choice I've ever heard. How exactly do you define the word "choice"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Choice always takes place in the context of ability. I cannot choose to rise up and fly. I have not lost my choice. Nor can I choose to create something out of nothing. I have not lost my choice. The sinful mind cannot choose God (Rom 3; Rom 8).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As I mentioned on another thread, I am in agreement with E. Y. Mullins, who, in his "Axioms of Religion", states under the moral axiom, "without freedom there is no responsibility". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not read Mullins on this but if you have properly represented him, then he was wrong. The biblical text precludes the position you are arguing for.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In a soteriological sense, God cannot hold me responsible for anything in which I have no choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we probably shouldn't tell God what he can and cannot do. "Shall the thing formed say to the thing who formed it, "Why have you made me this way?" Certainly not.

The slippery slope begins when we deny depravity and cede some ultimate authority to man. We are responsible for our sin the minute we sin.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

I have not read Mullins on this but if you have properly represented him, then he was wrong. The biblical text precludes the position you are arguing for.


I think we probably shouldn't tell God what he can and cannot do. "Shall the thing formed say to the thing who formed it, "Why have you made me this way?" Certainly not.

The slippery slope begins when we deny depravity and cede some ultimate authority to man. We are responsible for our sin the minute we sin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I must admit that I am somewhat distressed that you can so cavalierly dismiss the conjectures of a man I consider one of the greatest Southern Baptist Theologians to have ever lived. I refer you to _The Axioms Of Religion_, especially chapter 9 "The Moral Axiom". For a more in depth look at a less Calvinistic view of Baptist doctrine I refer you to _The Christian Religion in its Doctrinal Expression_

As always, thanks for allowing me to participate in this discussion,
buster

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

Choice always takes place in the context of ability. I cannot choose to rise up and fly. I have not lost my choice. Nor can I choose to create something out of nothing. I have not lost my choice. The sinful mind cannot choose God (Rom 3; Rom 8).


.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, but here's the rub. No one is holding you responsible for your inability to choose to fly or to be creative ex nihilo This argument is not about those things for which we are NOT responsible but about those for which we ARE responsible. There is an awful responsibility in accepting or rejecting Jesus as my Lord and Savior but I do have the opportunity to choose.

buster

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Buster:


I must admit that I am somewhat distressed that you can so cavalierly dismiss the conjectures of a man I consider one of the greatest Southern Baptist Theologians to have ever lived. buster<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the most influential, yes. One of the greatest, well ... I'll take J.P. Boyce or B.H. Carroll.

A good article on Mullins by Al Mohler can be found at

E. Y. Mullins:The Axioms of Religion