To tithe or not to tithe.

I will reply with scripture at a later post, but for now, why do you think you must have scripture from the new testament? The Bible says that not one jot or tittle is to be changed. You must realize that the old testament still applies to us, its just not our way for salvation. It is still robery if we do not tithe. God is the same today, tomorrow and forever.

 

You shouldn't give anything to anybody without having a fantastic attitude about it.

 

Tithing was an OT tax system under a Theocracy. Even non-believing Jews were made to pay it.

Thats why in the OT times they also had spiritual giving which had no % attached to it.

We are not under a Theocracy and therefore are left with ONLY spiritual giving.

Anybody who demands tithes is just money hungry. Theres nothing wrong with giving to a Church but theres no % attached to it.

If you are going to keep the law you have to keep the whole law, all of it, all 613 of them.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We are clearly not under the OT law.

Give as you can and are motivated to. Ignore the % it means nothing today. As for special blessings for tithing? Thats a lie.

You cant bribe God, we are blessed because of Jesus, not money

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pawn raider:
Should we tithe or not? I cannot find any reference to tithing in the NT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: THESE (paying tithes) OUGHT YE TO HAVE DONE, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus says that tithing is something that we ought to do.

 

As Dr. Cassidy has already pointed out, Jesus praised tithing. This means that tithing IS mentioned in the NT in a postiive light.

And I have to respond to the idea that believing in tithing is being "money hungry." If that's true, the same argument could be said that people who oppose tithing are even more "money hungry" because they refuse to give God a portion of their increase.

Opponents of tithing love to say that tithing is a holdover from the law. Yet Abraham tithed 400 years prior to the law (Gen 14).

Why the OT tithe? To finance a theocratic system of government? Deut. 14:22-23 tells the real reason when it says "You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year. "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. (emphasis mine)

So in answer to the original question: yes, we should tithe and give beyond the tithe, combining the theology of stewardship gleaned from both testaments.

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

Dr Bob Griffin and Ralf7 are both extremely right. I wrote a 22 page paper on tithing, so if anyone is interested let me know and I will e-mail them my studies.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> By Bro. Lee It is still robery if we do not tithe. God is the same today,
tomorrow and forever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mal 3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee?
In tithes and offerings.
KJV

This was written to the Nation of Israel who were not tithing. Israel not the Gentiles
or the Church. Offerings here as nothing to do with money beyond a tithe, but the sacrifices they were also neglecting. Tithing itself never has anything to do with money either, but always food. And tithing was also done every year, and there were three different tithes. It has absolutely nothing to do with your gross income once a week. You are not robbing God of you don’t get your calculator out and figure what ten percent is of your tithe. (or the fifth, also part of the tithe).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> By Bro Lee The Bible says that not one jot or tittle is to be changed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Matt 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
KJV

All of the law has been fulfilled as ralf7 pointed out. I can give you more Scripture to prove that if needed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thomas Cassidy said Jesus says that tithing is something that we ought to
do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And referring to Matthew 23. It would be good to read all of Matthew 23, its full of all the wrong things the Pharisees were doing, Jesus comes down on them pretty hard.
Tithing was one of them. They were not neglecting their tithe, just adding to this law more than what was required. Much like what people do today, telling us it is required and that its our gross income ect... Jesus was not in any way teaching us that we are to tithe, but telling the Pharisees that they were not to stop tithing. They were to continue to do so until the Law was fulfilled. It is now fulfilled. Matthew should be read as if it is Old Testament.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tom Vols said Opponents of tithing love to say that tithing is a holdover from the law. Yet Abraham tithed 400 years prior to the law (Gen 14).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What else did Abraham do before the Law?

*Abraham was commanded by God to circumcise his children (Gen. 17:9-14).

*Abraham was commanded by God to offer animal sacrifices (Gen. 15:7-10).

*Abraham was the first man in the Bible that had any connection with a
priest (Gen 14:18).

*Abraham was the first to tithe, and to a priest (Gen 14:18-20).

Every tither loves to point out the fact that Abraham tithed before the Law so we should all tithe after the Law. So he tithed before the Mosaic law was given, where can they find where God tells us to tithe after the law ended because Abraham did it before it started? Regardless, I believe Abraham
was tithing according to the covenant of law. Abraham was the first Hebrew. He was the father of the Hebrew race. As we turn to the New Testament we see he fills another role. He is pictured as the father of a
spiritual seed; those who become a child of God by faith. "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7)
"So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham." (Galatians 3:9)
"And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the
promise." (Galatians 3:29)
In studying this we find that Abraham had two roles in the Bible. He is the father of the Hebrew race according to the flesh, and the father of spiritual seed according to grace. The Old Testament points this out in the promise that God gave to Abraham, Gen. 13:16 "and I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth..." This refers to the fleshly or natural descendants of Abraham. Gen 15:5 "Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars if thou be able to number them; and he said unto him, so shall thy seed be."This promise refers to the spiritual or heavenly descendants of Abraham. The fleshly or natural descendants of Abraham were given the covenant of Law. The spiritual seed were given the covenant of GRACE. It would then only be fitting to say Abraham received both covenants. Let us see. Acts chapter seven recorded Stephen's sermon that cost him his life. Acts 7:2 "Men brethren, and fathers,
hearken; the God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham..." The first eight verses are devoted to the call of Abraham and Gods dealings with him. In verse eight Stephen says "and God gave him the covenant of circumcision..." In the New Testament Paul clearly speaks of the covenant of circumcision as being the same thing as the Law of Moses. (Rom.2:25, 4:8-12, 9:1-5,
Gal 4:21-31, 5:2-3, 6:12-13, Eph 2:11 and Phill 3:1-6) Since it is clear they are the same, then one must conclude Abraham was given the covenant of Law before the same covenant was engraved in stones and given to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my Laws. (Genesis 26:5)

WHAT DID ABRAHAM TITHE?

The Bible says Abraham was rich in silver and gold. And Abram [was] very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold. (Genesis 13:2) But is this what Abraham tithed? The Bible says he tithed of the spoils of battle that had been fought with Chedorlamer,
Now consider how great this man [was], unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. (Hebrews 7:4) Why don't tithers tithe what they have acquired in a battle? That is what Abraham tithed. Let me also point out that the Bible records only one time in which Abraham gave a tithe. He was under a covenant of Law, and he tithed the spoils of battle.

2 Cor 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
KJV


With love,

Chet

 

Chris,
Shame on me, but here's where I disagree with MacArthur I think MacArthur's dispensationalism clouds his thinking on the theology of tithing. Shortly after MacArthur's release of "Whose Money is it Anyway," I wrote a rebuttal of his chapter against tithing. If I can find it, I'll repost it here or send it to anyone who wants it.

 

Ralf wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Tithing was an OT tax system under a Theocracy. Even non-believing Jews were made to pay it.
Thats why in the OT times they also had spiritual giving which had no % attached to it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Scripture, please?

 

Chet,
All of the things you point out that Abraham did are specifically abrogated in the NT, and you probably already know that. But where is the NT abolition of tithing? I don't see it. Neither did the early church, which practiced tithing.

You wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Matthew should be read as if it is Old Testament <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HUH? Chet, you're probably a good guy and all, but I think attempting to re-canonize Scripture might be a little out of your league

You asked what Abraham tithed off of? Hebrews 7:2 gives the answer <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You quoted 2 Cor 9:7, highlighting the KJV word "necessity." Are you implying that we are not required to give anything? I'm sincerely asking because I don't want to misunderstand your point.

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

I have to agree with Raulf7, Chris Temple, and John MacArthur. As MacArthur does, you have to do an "apples-to-apples" comparison of both taxes and giving to the church. Today, most of us pay 40% or more in taxes by the time all the federal, state, and local thugs get their hands out of our pockets. As MacArthur points out, even including what was used to fund the synagogs, the Israelites gave 25% tops.

Using a nice round $100,000 gross income as an example, if one were to tithe 10% on gross, that would be $10,000. That comes out to be 16.7% of of their net, or added to their tax rate, 50% of their gross income combined.

Now for those who can afford to give Uncle Sam and their church 50% of their income, great, as long as you are still a cheerful giver about it.

I believe it all comes down to the fact that pastors and church leaders are scared that if the admonition to "tithe" is backed off, most people who give hundreds a month will suddenly give much less. With proper expository teaching of scriptures, that doesn't have to happen. I don't think John MacArthur has a budget problem in his church! Teaching significant giving to the point that it causes sacrifice is in line with what Jesus taught. Sure Jesus said continue to tithe; in other words, continue to pay your taxes. Jesus always upheld the authority and legitimacy of government.

Personally, I give close to 10% of net. It would be nice to drive a nicer car, or own a cabin in the mountains, which I could easily do if I lowered my church giving to $20/week. So I am giving sacrificially, and with a cheerful heart! If I felt compelled to give 10% of gross, I can tell you that I would have to take my children out of private school and put them back in public school. I am at peace that my checkbook is a sound theological document, i.e. what we spend our money on reflects right living according to godly priorities. I don't have one guilty bone in me that I am not "tithing" by OT standards.

Tom, I fail to see anything "dispensational" about MacArthur's article, but would be interested in reading your rebuttal.

God bless!

 

I believe New Covenant tithing is scriptural
only if it is preached and done by faith.

...without faith it is impossible to please Him
...whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Under the Law, the tithe was on agricultural products grown in the Land (HaEretz)only.
They were to be taken to the Temple Storehouse to the priesthood (cohanim).
If that was inconvenient one could sell the produce and/or cattle and throw a party (with strongdrink if you wished).

I can't find anyplace in the Law where a wage-earner was to tithe.

RE:Abraham tithed before the Law was given. Abaraham was also a polygamist "before the Law" was given.

One observation that I have made over the years is that those who are on the receiving side of the tithe (and I've been on both sides) are by far the strongest advocates.

"The just shall live by faith".

I hope every pastor/preacher/teacher knows that this is the ONLY appeal that can be made for New Covenant giving and the motivating force is agape love and not the demands of the Law or the Prophets.

HankD

 

Lu 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure,
pressed down, and shaken together, and running
over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the
same measure that ye mete withal it shall be
measured to you again.
1Co 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you
lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that
there be no gatherings when I come.
I belong to a church where the pastor preaches tithing, & I know the man is not "money-hungry". I myself choose to give
as led by my heart. I've tried it both ways & have learned that for me, I recieve greater blessings by giving this way. I will say that if a person is undecided on the proper way or amount to give, then 10% is a good place to start. It all belongs to my Father anyway!!

 

Tom,

Contained herein are the scriptural references you requested:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come. (1 Cor 16:2 NASB)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the note:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16:2 first day of the week. This evidences that the early church met on Sunday (Acts 20:7). The point is that giving must occur regularly, not just when one feels generous, particularly led to do so, or instructed to do so for some special purpose (cf. Luke 6:38; cf. 2 Cor. 9:6, 7). as he may prosper. No required amount or percentage for giving to the Lord’s work is specified in the NT. All giving to the Lord is to be free will giving and completely discretionary (see Luke 6:38; 2 Cor. 9:6–8). This is not to be confused with the OT required giving of 3 tithes (see Lev. 27:30; Num. 18:21–26; Deut. 14:28, 29; Mal. 3:8–10) which totaled about 23 percent annually to fund the national government of Israel, take care of public festivals, and provide welfare. Modern parallels to the OT tithe are found in the taxation system of countries (Rom. 13:6). OT giving to God was not regulated as to amount (see Ex. 25:1, 2; 35:21; 36:6; Prov. 3:9, 10; 11:24).
John F. MacArthur, Jr., The MacArthur Study Bible, (Dallas: Word Publishing) 1997.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

TomVols said:

As Dr. Cassidy has already pointed out, Jesus praised tithing. This means that tithing IS mentioned in the NT in a postiive light.

I personally find it difficult to see Christ's "praise" of tithing in a rant about the hypocrisy of Pharisees,as a "positive" mention.

Keep in mind also that he was talking to Pharisees under the Law who prided themselves in keeping that Law, but who were nonetheless observing the minutiae of the Law while ignoring its greater principles. Of course Jesus told them they ought to have tithed. If he didn't, if he had said "You ought to have ignored that in favour of mercy and love" then he would have contradicted the very point he was making (that the Pharisees' observance of the law was selective).

But Jesus' approval of tithing in that context does not answer the question: Is it still required of Christians to observe the Jewish law of contributing one-tenth of one's income for the maintenance of the tribe of Levi, the priests, and the Temple? Well, we don't have Levites, a priestly caste, or a Temple built with hands any more. Does that answer the question?

If that's true, the same argument could be said that people who oppose tithing are even more "money hungry" because they refuse to give God a portion of their increase.

Except that those who oppose tithing are not, per se, opposed to giving anything. We simply believe that the New Covenant principle is not to have a 10% tax levied upon believers, but for them to give whatever they desire, freely and cheerfully.

Opponents of tithing love to say that tithing is a holdover from the law. Yet Abraham tithed 400 years prior to the law (Gen 14).

And where in Gen. 14 or anywhere else does it say that Melchizedek demanded that tithe, or that it was meant for the upkeep of Melchizedek, his family, or a theocracy? Does Scripture even hint that it was anything but a free-will gift offered voluntarily by Abraham to Melchizedek? (Remember that "tithe" is simply an archaic form of the word "tenth," and thus it speaks only of the quantity of the gift, and not why it was given, or what "kind" of gift it was.)

Why the OT tithe? To finance a theocratic system of government? Deut. 14:22-23 tells the real reason . . .

That is only one tithe. The first use of the word in the Law is Lev. 27:30, which says that "all the tithe of the land . . . is the Lord's; it is holy to the Lord."

Subsequently, Numbers 18 and 19 say that a tithe "has been given to the Levites for an inheritance" (Lev. 18:24). Whereas the other tribes recieved land as their legacy, the Levites received one-tenth of the fruit of that land in lieu of real estate (excepting a few of their own cities). So to this extent, yes, the tithe was intended to support the theocracy and the priests.

And then there is the "party tithe," as I call it, in Deut. 12 and 14. And here is where the mandatory-tenth argument falls apart. You have put this tithe forward as proof that the tithe was NOT a form of taxation. And it isn't. But let me ask you: If you support the idea that since the tithe is still in effect, all believers ought to give one-tenth of their income to God's work, are you also in support of a day in which every member of your church is to spend ten percent of his yearly income on a potluck supper?

I bet not. It'd be fun, though.

 

Ransom said, "are you also in support of a day in which every member of your church is to spend ten percent of his yearly income on a potluck supper?"

Our church is guilty of that!!! Man you should see the layout of food at our potlucks!!

Agree completely with your analysis.

 

Lev 27:29-32
And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree,is the LORD's. It is holy to the LORD. If a man wants at all to redeem any of his tithes, he shall add one-fifth to it. And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the LORD
NKJV

Here we see that a tithe is: 1) The seed of the land 2) Fruit of the tree 3) The herd 4) Flock 5) Whatsoever passeth under the rod.(which was an animal)God had told Israel to give a tenth of the flock that passed under the rod to keep them from selecting the poorest of the herd. This way whatever passed was to be tithed.

2 Chron 31:5-6
As soon as the commandment was circulated, the children of Israel brought in abundance
the firstfruits of grain and wine, oil and honey, and of all the produce of the field; and they brought in abundantly the tithe of everything. And the children of Israel and Judah, who dwelt in the cities of Judah, brought the tithe of oxen and sheep; also the tithe of holy things which were consecrated to the LORD their God they laid in heaps.
NKJV

This portion of scripture shows us that a tithe is 1) corn 2) oil 3) wine 4) honey 5)increase of the field 6) oxen and 7) sheep When looking at all of the references concerning tithing you will not be able to find one place where it is the giving of money as an offering. It is only food. Abraham's tithe may be the only exception to this as the Scripture says that he gave the spoils of the war, which could have included more than food. You will not find where the tithe was money, silver, gold, clothes, house, ect. It was food and only food. Anything that could be eaten. You can see this in the Pharisees who wanted to add to the simple law given to them by tithing
mint, herbs, anise, cummin, and rue, not money.(Matt. 23:23 Luke 11:42).

Tithing has nothing at all to do with New Testament giving. If you choose to give ten
percent of your income that is between you and God. But it is not a commandment, nor
are we asked to tithe. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with money.

Tomvols, you said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Neither did the early church, which practiced tithing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Brother Tom, where exactly in the NT did they practice tithing?

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and Acts are very unique books. They are recording
historical events that happened during the Mosaic Law. Jesus was under this law, as well as the Pharisees. Matthew especially must be read in light of the fact that Matthew was presenting Jesus as the promised King. Much of the book is a teaching about that kingdom. Acts is a transitional book from Law to Grace. I say we must read the gospels as if we were still reading the OT because those OT characters walk right out
into those gospels. John the Baptist was a prophet, who pronounced the King and was
preparing the Jews for the Kingdom. He would have been Elijah if they would not have
rejected their King.

Tom, you brought up Hebrews 7. I am glad you did, lets take a closer look at this
chapter. We must first know who is being spoken to. This letter was not written to any
Church. It was a letter to the Jews. But let me make this point very clear, I believe that the Jews were Christian Jews. Jews who were struggling with doctrines and fear of
persecution. I do believe that the book of Hebrews is applicable for every Christian, not just the Jews. The problem was the Jews did not understand the position of our Lord
Jesus Christ. They thought they were still under the obligation to the Law. The
writer was teaching them that Christ was superior to Angels, Moses, and the Levitical system. He was the "better sacrifice" as these Jews was still offering sacrifice. Jesus is superior. The writer of Hebrews taught them in the seventh chapter how Jesus was a yet higher priest than Melchisedec. If the law in which they were still trying to follow could bring perfection or salvation then why must Christ come who lives forever after the order of Melchisedec?

Heb 7:11-12
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people
received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
NKJV

This is the key to the whole chapter. They were still trying to pay tithes to a Levitacal system which was dying anyway. Jesus is in a higher position. The law is abolished. The time this letter was written the temple still stood, and tithes were still being paid. The writer says this is unnecessary. Verse five tells us they were doing it according to their Law:

Heb 7:5
And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a
commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, frombtheir brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;
NKJV

Concerning Abraham:
The Bible clearly tells us that Abraham tithed only one time, at the age of seventy-five. And it tells us that he did tithe everything, everything from the spoils he won in war.

Heb 7:4-5
Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.
NKJV

Tom, I also understand that the list I gave of everything Abraham did before the Law is
now abolished in Christ. But all of the Law is abolished in Christ, including tithing.
Tithing is part of the Law. Which is no longer for us, and it was never given to the
Gentile anyway.

2 Cor 9:7
7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity;
for God loves a cheerful giver.
NKJV

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>NT:318
anagke (an-ang-kay'); from NT:303 and the base of NT:43; constraint (literally or
figuratively); by implication, distress:
KJV - distress, must needs, (of) necessity (-sary), needeth, needful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I believe in giving, but I believe that giving should not be a necessity...something we have to do. Peter had said early in Acts, “Silver and Gold have I none, but as much as I have I give thee.” He did something. We can give without money. Why didn’t Peter have money anyway?

Tithing is a legalistic measuring rod for Christians to measure their “spirituality”. They feel better about themselves if they tithe. I have heard preachers use tithing in every sermon they preach. Somehow they incorporate it. Where in the Bible does God teach that we must prove our love by paying someone? Or where does God teach that we can merit his favor or blessings by paying Him? God does not want your crisp $20 bill, he wants your heart. And He certainly does not need our money.

With love,

Chet

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Let me try to answer these one at a time, as time permits:
Wells,
I was asking for Scriptural proof of some assertions made by Ralf. You provided a note from MacArthur's study Bible. There is a difference And I do believe that MacArthur's strict dispensationalism and its presuppositions force MacArthur to hold the position he holds.

Chet,
I'll answer one of your questions briefly. You asked about the nature of tithing in the early church. Simply look at any church history, or the Didache to see that the early church believed in and practiced tithing. They clearly did not have the problems with tithing that our materialistic culture has today. As much as I love the Puritans, I believe their reaction against tithing, which feeds much of the Reformed movement against tithing, was reactionary against the Crown, much like the bias against the KJV due to religious persecution. (I guess that's a topic for another thread)
So I guess I'm a bad Reformed Baptist since I believe in the principle of the tithe. Oh well, I guess I'll have to give up my decoder ring and my badge
I'll try to get to some more of the as time permits.

[ August 27, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

Let me post a link to an article that is pro-tithing. If necessary, I'll respond to some other comments as I have time. Giving and Tithing