To tithe or not to tithe.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If you attend a local church and do not give you are robbing everybody in that place of worship. Be practical. If you don't like giving, then start having church in your house. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rolcik, you should know that some who object to tithing being foisted upon the church as a New Testament law have no objection at all to giving, and many such people give much more than ten percent.

 

Good point. I am just sick of pastors trying not to offend all the skiddish people, by side stepping the giving issue in soft terms.
20% give 80% of the money. I mean, I am not hung up on %, I just give what I can and am very happy to do so. I absorb church resources and so do my kids, so whats the problem with being asked to give? The government does not give money to my church to keep it going. I am just being practical.

 

Rolcik, there is a very good point in what you're saying. Though I do not believe that tithing is a New Testament doctrine, I do believe that it is the church members' responsibility to support the church. The government should not be asked to support it, and neither should the world (via bake sales, car washes, etc.). Of course, I am not interested in supporting 90% of what goes for ministry in the average U. S. Baptist church today.

 

Tom,

That was a GREAT quote from Martyn Lloyd Jones. First time I heard it. It spoke volumes about me personally. In the past I interpreted everything by “what I knew” (better said “what I thought I knew&#8221 . That is an easy trap to fall into by just grab bagging verses here and there, using the ones that worked for my preconceived ideas, and skipping over the rest. Studying and teaching through books of the Bible, is one reason I’ve come to this site to discuss some things “I thought I knew” before, but now question. Thanks again for passing on that quote.

I’ll admit after doing a study all the way from Genesis through Acts, I don’t recall seeing the early church tithing. It did not even make it on the list that the Jews sent to the Gentile believers in Antioch, asking them to observe. I’m almost done with a study through Roman’s and have not seen it taught there either. I’ll admit I have not studied the other epistles yet and I may be missing something. It just interests me that something I was taught to do and is of great importance in my circles, does not show itself in Acts.

Tom you said,

“But where is the NT abolition of tithing? I don't see it. Neither did the early church, which practiced tithing.”

Can you direct me to the teaching or example of the believer in the NT practicing tithing? As I said, I could very well be missing something in a later letter. Your assistance would be appreciated.

Packer Backer

 

Packer,
Check my earlier posts. I discussed this question in an earlier post. Forgive me for not finding it and snipping it as the flu is beating me right now

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rolcik:
Somebody has to pay for the lights, the pastor, the water, the building. Give it a break, the money does not rain from the rafters after prayer people.

If you attend a local church and do not give you are robbing everybody in that place of worship. Be practical. If you don't like giving, then start having church in your house. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Rolcik,

You may be on to something. The church written about in the NT met in homes and did not use their funds to make a name for themselves, attract people to their building, or create a comfortable atmosphere. From my reading it seems like they were more focused on telling others about Christ and helping each other.

Currently I meet in a home with a group of believers (For the record, Not because I don’t like giving). We help each other when needed but there has yet to be a need for collecting funds for some "church fund" since there really are no bills to pay. I agree with you whole-heartedly that if your group has a building and bills to pay, a person is a freeloader who does not help in contributing. I just wonder though if we have created a monster, with buildings and such, in an effort to give our group or ourselves an identity. Perhaps we have complicated what was originally meant to be simple. Just thinking out loud.

[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]

 

PackerBacker (not Green Bay, I hope ) - You are doing some good thinking. Keep doing it out loud for the benefit of the rest of us!

 

It is true that most of the early church met from house to house alot but they all met in the temple daily, read Acts 2:42-47 but mostly look at vs. 46 it says "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat meat with gladness and singlness of heart." See the met house to house breaking bread and eating. It wasn't until after they started being stamped out and persucuted in Jerusalem that they had to meet secretly in each others houses. And we do not see this in any of the churches in which Paul started.
I mean thick about it, in Acts 2:41 we see 3,000 souls added to the church. Now I don't know how many of you that have a house that big to accomadate that many or even a tird of that many people. Truth is there are not many church buildings in which can hold that many. And there is definetly more christians today then there were then, and so we need church buildings, and we need people that will give to God. I don't know about the law of tithing, weather it was abolished, but if it was, just think about all that Jesus said about the law. The law said if you muder you have transgressed, but I say if you are angry with your brother without a casue you have commited muder in your heart, and the same He said about adultery. He nailed the law to the cross, but that did not abolish the law because Paul sais that the law was our schoolmaster, but now we are under grace and the much more we should do under grace than under the law.
Will you go to hell for not tithing? Surely not, but should we not give offerings unto God and further His work through the local church in which He established, not man? Should we not, because of grace, do over and above what the law required. Sounds to me like we have alot of people trying to justify why they don't give like they should. How much did God give to you when He sent His Son to die for your sins? Sure it's a free gift to you, but it costed heaven everything. Should we then be talking about weather it's right to give back to God? The OT saints were required 10% and then they could give a free will offering to God. If they gave 10% and then some and still had to offer sacrifices and do all these rituals that was required of them, how much more we should give because we don't have to do all these things.
Show me another way that we can carry out the great commision to the utter most parts of the earth without money. How that we can make disciples of men and women, how we can edify the saints. You talked about the Early church meeting from house to house, but no one mentioned that they sold thier possesions and gave every man according to his need. My, My, if you are going to debate about giving 10%, do you really think that you are ready to sell all your possesions and give to every man according to his need?
People come on, we need to wake up. Would it be right or would it be wrong NOT to give to God?


God speed.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Would it be right or would it be wrong NOT to give to God?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The discussion of whether God has established a New Testament law of tithing is not ABOUT whether or not one should give at all. In fact, it's not really even about HOW MUCH one should give. A person may give 10% and yet do it out of the purpose of their heart rather than because it is a New Testament law. So the heart of the discussion really is over what New Testament principle(s) God established for the church. Whether one is a stingy non-tither or a grudging tither is really beside the point - it proves nothing Biblically.

 

Joey,

Not sure I have this quote stuff right yet but I'll give it a try. Forgive me if I mess it up.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:
It is true that most of the early church met from house to house alot but they all met in the temple daily, read Acts 2:42-47 but mostly look at vs. 46 it says "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat meat with gladness and singlness of heart." See the met house to house breaking bread and eating. It wasn't until after they started being stamped out and persucuted in Jerusalem that they had to meet secretly in each others houses. And we do not see this in any of the churches in which Paul started.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who met daily in the temple? For the most part it was a group of Jews that had accepted the fact that Jesus was their promised savior. These early believers did not see their faith as being different from their Judaism. On the contrary they saw Jesus as being that promised Lord and Christ of their own religion (vs 36). It would not seem unnatural at all for them to go to the temple and share their faith. The temple was not a “Christian” building nor was it a church. The group of Jewish believers was the church, inside the temple or in their homes (which were both happening before persecution). Making a parallel to the meeting in the temple as being a “church building” might cause a few logical problems.

I must admit I didn’t see any “secret meeting in homes,” as I studied Acts. Most of these churches that met in homes were anything but secret. Their faith in Christ is what spread and enlarged, and not a building or ministry. I think you noticed that the Gentiles got along fine without buildings also. Perhaps that is a reason they were never instructed to tithe to meet the needs of the building


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I mean thick about it, in Acts 2:41 we see 3,000 souls added to the church. Now I don't know how many of you that have a house that big to accomadate that many or even a tird of that many people. Truth is there are not many church buildings in which can hold that many. And there is definetly more christians today then there were then, and so we need church buildings, and we need people that will give to God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where do we get the idea that we would have to have a house big enough for 3000 people anyway? Did the group chased out of the temple and Jerusalem go into a panic because they did not have a building to fit the estimated 5000 baptized believers? Hardly. Assuming your right that there are more Christians today than before, how does that justify the need of “church buildings.” That same reasoning would lead to the 5000 chased out of the temple “needing a church building.” As you probably know from reading Acts, they did not need a building and seemed to be far more effective in spreading the gospel message than most of us that seem to “need church buildings.”

Could it be that because we see buildings as such an important part of our Christianity today, that we strain the scriptures through our “this is how we do things strainer” as we read it. I know because I have done the same thing for most of my Christian life. As a missionary I came to the field with my preconceived ideas of what a church was. If I was to “start a church” as I set out to do, I knew what would be required before I could report that a church was started. I would need a slide or picture of a local pastor standing in front of a building with a sign, “Such and Such Baptist church.” How many supporting churches would accept the fact that a church was started if there is no building? The reality is, few. With these previous preconceived ideas, I would balk at the “weirdo” who talked about house churches. My thinking was, “That’s not how we do things,” and I could always find some verse or phrase to back up “my way,” as we all tend to do.

After starting studying through books like Acts, I began to get pretty embarrassed at how I had tried to forced scripture to conform to “my way.” If my way of thinking was true about a real church, the believers in Acts were overwhelmingly weirdoes.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sounds to me like we have alot of people trying to justify why they don't give like they should. How much did God give to you when He sent His Son to die for your sins? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I for one am “not trying justify something I don’t want to do,” as most of the other posts I read did not seem to be coming across that way. I think some including myself want to know “why we do some things?” Do we tithe because it is commanded, similar to baptism? Do we tithe or give to keep God’s work alive and going? Do we do it because that is just what we have always been told, or do we give similar to you, in order to meet the needs of the group you meet with? I think these are the things people are trying to figure out on this thread.

I’m sure we all appreciate the reminder about what God gave us. His gift of salvation is so incredible and great that all of our pennies and dollars combined would be nothing compared to that. If you understand God’s mercy and grace yourself, as you surly do, then you must be reminded yourself that your personal giving habits fall in the same category as “worthless and meaningless” compared to what God gave to us sinners. Just want to make sure you are as well reminded of this wonderful truth.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Should we then be talking about weather it's right to give back to God? The OT saints were required 10% and then they could give a free will offering to God. If they gave 10% and then some and still had to offer sacrifices and do all these rituals that was required of them, how much more we should give because we don't have to do all these things. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t think anybody is talking about what they need or want to give back to God. Seems the question is “are we required” to give a certain amount that largely goes to salaries, buildings, land, etc. No one, including myself can question your sincerity. You appear to give willingly and joyfully. I’d bet some of the other people posting are sincere also but may give in a different way than you do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Show me another way that we can carry out the great commision to the utter most parts of the earth without money. How that we can make disciples of men and women, how we can edify the saints.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you saying that the tithe is the only way to carry out the great commission? Your question indicates that you see it as the only way to do this. I guess I was unaware that “making disciples and edifying saints is done with money.” If that is the case, maybe it would be better be said, “buying disciples and financing the edification of saints.” Let me answer your question with a couple questions. Whose tithe went to John the Baptist to finance his preparation for the Lord? Whose tithe financed Jesus and the disciples as they spread the message to others? Whose tithe was financing Aquila and Piscilla in Ephesus? I could be wrong, but I think your answer to these questions might answer your own question. Yes, giving as you do, no doubt helps in getting the message out to other people, but it is far from being the only way God can send the gospel message to other people. How much money do you need from your own church’s fund in order to take the gospel to people in your own area?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You talked about the Early church meeting from house to house, but no one mentioned that they sold thier possesions and gave every man according to his need. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought I mentioned that but sorry if I didn’t. I’d hope I would be able to unselfishly give as those early believers did to help each other, but I’d not go so far to puff out my chest and say I could or would. I’ll be honest enough to admit I know my own heart enough to know I might not. Are you ready to do it?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>My, My, if you are going to debate about giving 10%, do you really think that you are ready to sell all your possesions and give to every man according to his need?
People come on, we need to wake up. Would it be right or would it be wrong NOT to give to God?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Want to know what’s funny about this? I currently give over 10% of my income, not including the herbs and veggies. I’m not down on the tithe or any other giving that God could use. I just got in this thread because I want to know why we do things? Do we do give out of sincerity and appreciation, as you seem to do or do we do things just because the preacher or Baptist church said, “Do this!”

It’s not a matter of right and wrong in giving to God that most are talking about. This is where you seem to miss the point. Would it be right or wrong for if I told you that you needed to give 100% of everything to have to God? Of course it would be right, and your reasonable service, considering that great price he paid for you. You would find it hard to debate that it would be wrong not to give 100% to God. It’s not a question of right and wrong it is a question of “who says?” Your question should be, is this something PackerBacker told me to do or is this something I know God wants me to do, from clear teaching and practice in scripture?

After two thirds of Paul’s letter to the Romans, speaking about the depravity of man and the wonderful faithfulness and mercy of God, Paul breaks out in praise to God at the end of chapter 11. At the end of his praise for God’s wonderful mercy and ways, he says, “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present you bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service” (NKJV). Do we give as living sacrifices to God, due to His mercy or do we give because we are commanded to by our religion. I think that’s the answer some, including myself are seeking? Please don’t be too over critical of some who are trying to “wake-up” and see if they are following man’s way or God’s.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]

 

Point taken, oouch!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:
Point taken, oouch! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joey,

Thanks for the nice reply I have enjoyed reading some of your other posts.

PackerBacker

 

rlvaughn wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> A person may give 10% and yet do it out of the purpose of their heart rather than because it is a New Testament law. So the heart of the discussion really is over what New Testament principle(s) God established for the church. Whether one is a stingy non-tither or a grudging tither is really beside the point - it proves nothing Biblically.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very good point. People tend to think that tithers only do so out of some legalistic guilt, and not all other gifts and givers are autmoatically cheerful in nature.

 

Trying to keep this topic alive. Do I teach the new belivers I am working with to tithe or not? If I teach them to tithe, should it be money, bananas, fish....? Would like more dialog on this subject if possible.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Bible scholar here, but I think that Luke6:38 might have something to do with tithe. You give out of Thanksgiving. You give because you want others to be just as blessed as you are by God. If you send the light, You have to pay the light bill. Not all tithe goes to line the pocket of your Pastor. Theres the light bill, water bill, up-keep on the church building. In our church the money also goes to pay for our Baptist school. Why wouldn't you want your Pastor to be comfortable? Do you really want your Pastor to work a second job just to make ends meet? I can say without a doubt, when my husband and I started paying tithe faithfully, there hasn't been a thing that we've needed the Lord hasn't met.

Paula

[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: livin'intheword ]

 

Baptists have really been careful in teaching doctrines. We always consider taking each verse in its context. That is why it is surprising why when it comes to tithing, Baptists seem to say that tithing is in the Bible, Abraham gave tithes, that is why we should give tithes. If that would be our reasoning then let us also built an ark as Noah did and let us also hang ourselves in the cross as Christ did. But we would not! For if we consider the context hanging on the cross is not for us to do, and it is not commanded to us - it is for our Saviour. Tithing, on the other hand, is for Israel. Come on, let us NOT choose which verse we will take with its context so as to impose certain protocols - that's a not appropriate! Instead let us taking everything in its context.

 

Aki, are you saying that we shouldn't tithe?
Are you saying that you don't give at the church you attend.
If so, wouldn't it be nice if everyone in your church felt the way you do and next month there would be no heat and then the next no lights until finally, another church closes it's doors.


God speed.

 

PackerBacker I am really enjoying your post, keep them up! Great points! Thanks.

livin'intheword Luke 6:38 is not a reference to tithing. Nor is it necessarily a reference to money at all. But the context shows that what we sow is what we reap, Mercy will lead to mercy, judgment to judgment, giving to giving.

You said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I can say without a doubt, when my husband and I started paying
tithe faithfully, there hasn't been a thing that we've needed the Lord hasn't met.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can say that without a doubt after I discovered the truth of what a Biblical tithe is, and when I quit giving 10%, my financial structure did not change. And the Lord has blessed us as well. He has provided us with our needs. Can’t say I missed a meal because I was too poor. Tithing is not a formula for no debt. I do agree with you that all of the bills need to be paid, and the Pastor should be taken care of. I am also pleased that you feel the way you do, and that should be commendable. But that has nothing at all to do with 10% of our income. I must say that PackerBacker is right, just how many bills have we made for ourselves that is simply not needed. Why do we spend our money on the extravagance of a building, how about redirecting our funds to things that would help with the discipleship of believers?

Everyone please understand that TITHING does not equal GIVING.
You won’t even find a Scriptural reference to tithes being money, especially our income. I don’t think anyone here who believes tithing is not a requirement believes in not giving at all. And why do we limit our narrow view of giving? Does it always require money?

Chet

[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Great lead-in to what came to mind reading these excellent posts, Chet. Tithing is only a small part of stewardship! We are to be cheerful givers of, not only our money, but our time and talents.

If one gets annoyed by being asked to work in the nursery and declined this morning, but felt good about themselves after putting their 10% in the offering plate, then they no more glorified God than the one who worked the nursery but considered that their “giving” and snubbed the offering plate.

God is more pleased with the one who gives freely of their money, time, and talents, however much that turns out to be. Married w/kids folks may not have as much time as singles and seniors, but should give as they are able. Young people may not be able to give as much money as their more senior established brethren, but all should give as they are able, with cheerful hearts. The amount should be enough to require sacrifice. Good stewardship involves giving our all, cheerfully, not in prescribed quantities or quotas! The problem is, not enough people do that. If they did, there would be no need for sermons on tithing or giving!

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
Great lead-in to what came to mind reading these excellent posts, Chet. Tithing is only a small part of stewardship! We are to be cheerful givers of, not only our money, but our time and talents.

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John,

Good comments and summery. I want those I'm discipling to develop the same kind of positive attitude towards giving as you mentioned. My question is: do I teach them that "The Bible says you must tithe" and if so, what basis does that come from? If it is a clear teaching from scripture to tithe I want to teach it. If not, I want to be very careful.

Some on this thread get all bent out of shape about how the light bill gets paid. That's a seperate issue. Sure the light bill needs paid, but is it to be paid by the required 10% from the members? That's the question. Attitude is a seperate issue.

Thanks again for your comments.

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: PackerBacker ]