To tithe or not to tithe.

1 Corinthians 16:2 (NIV)
2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No required amount or percentage for giving to the Lord’s work is specified in the NT. All giving to the Lord is to be free will giving and completely discretionary (see Luke 6:38; 2 Cor. 9:6–8). This is not to be confused with the OT required giving of 3 tithes (see Lev. 27:30; Num. 18:21–26; Deut. 14:28, 29; Mal. 3:8–10) which totaled about 23 percent annually to fund the national government of Israel, take care of public festivals, and provide welfare. Modern parallels to the OT tithe are found in the taxation system of countries (Rom. 13:6). OT giving to God was not regulated as to amount (see Ex. 25:1, 2; 35:21; 36:6; Prov. 3:9, 10; 11:24). - MacArthur, J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (Electronic ed.) (1 Co 16:2). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 Corinthians 9:7 (NIV)
7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

God bless!

[ November 18, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

I try to keep it simple. God loves a cheerful giver. The local church needs to be supported. If you enjoy your local church and are spiritually fed, nothing says you have to limit your giving to 10 percent.

I've heard alot of excuses over the years. I'm not referring to anything I read here, just offering some thoughts. If you decide to give 10 percent I would think it would be based on your gross income. (Almost seems cheap to argue over whether it is before taxes or after). I mean, come on.
After that is done and you want to give to a stranger, etc. then give. Nothing stopping anyone from giving 30 or 40 per cent.

I think if a person is really hung up on whether to give 10 per cent or not, then they are probably not a cheerful giver and might as well keep their money.
Also, whether it is OT or NT is rather moot. Abraham gave 10 per cent of everything and that was BEFORE the law.

Of course God doesn't need our money. It's His to start with.

 

James2,

The problem with your line of reasoning is that the 10% "measuring stick" you aspire to is arbitrary on your part. As I, through scripture (MacArthrur's many references) have shown, it is not biblical. Your and my hearts would meet in perfect harmony if every church attender obeyed good stewardship, not tithing. For some could and would give more than a tithe (as they are able), and some would give various amounts less than 10% (also as they are able).

Let me give you my own situation as an example: I am putting three children through our church's private Christian school. I make a pretty good income (praise God) but $1400/mo. tuition takes quite a chunk of it. As it is, I give about 10% of net income, not gross. I am a very cheerful giver at this point, both to the church, and toward the $1400/mo. for Christian educations for my children. In order to give 10% of gross, I'd have to put one or more of my kids in public school. There is no extravagant lifestyle to cut back on. Which choice honors God more?

 

John Wells:
Thanks for the nice, thoughtful response. I really don't aspire to the 10 per cent rule. In my research, I find it mostly mentioned in the Old Testament, not the new. Like I said, God loves a cheerful giver. You circumstances are for you decide and I can see why you would do anything to keep your kids in private instead of the public schools.

God knows the heart, and I guess that is what I was trying to get across. Some people may be able to give 50 per cent and have less effect on them than those giving 5 per cent.

Personally, I believe that you should give whatever you feel you should. The only thing I really oppose are the people like Robert Tilton who tell people to send in "seed" ,money. You know. Give 10 per cent and God will give you back 100 per cent. That whole idea that the reason you should give is to you can get I find repulsive.

I think we agree on this. By the way, congratulations on doing the best for your kids that you can. I commend you.
James2

 

James2,

The good ol' "prosperity gospel!" Tilton, Hinn, Oral Roberts, and company! Well, they say "a fool and his/her money are soon departed!" That's all I'll say about those folks.

Thanks for your kind words regarding my kids. It gives me great pleasure to send them where all their teachers believe in Jesus, and where the Bible is taught and evolution is not!

God bless!

 

John Wells:
I John. Yes, how can people be so blind as to fall for the prosperity message? It is an absolute farce. I keep telling people if Copeland etc. are right why didn't the Apostles seek wealth and fame. They all died poor, abused, mocked etc. The devil is the god of this world and the prosperity-faith message is one of his best tools.

It is wonderful that you kids go to a christian school and are not brain-washed with that horrible, ridiculous concept of evolution. That's another deception I have never been able to understand. It is so full of holes and obviously taught by people of have a personal agenda, including hating God and not wanting to live by righteous standards. It takes more faith to believe that everything "just happened" than it does to believe in a Sovereign God of the universe.
God bless you and your family. Have a great Thanksgiving.
James2

 

James wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Personally, I believe that you should give whatever you feel you should. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the subjectivist culture of our society described in plain view: I'll give what I decide, not what God asks of me. (Emphasis mine). I'll give what I feel. I'm sorry, I can't go there. God's Word commands the tithe. The NT does not abrogate it. This is fact, no matter what St. MacArthur says
James, I appreciate the spirit of your posts. But no one is setting the tithe as a limit or cap. Just wanted to clarify this.

 

John,
I love John MacArthur as much as a fellow Reformed person can. But he is misguided on the subject of the tithe, in no small part based on his dispensational hermeneutic which forces him practically to take this view. These assertions have been debated earlier and I won't repeat them here. And glad to hear that you do tithe, that is, give 10 % of your net

In all seriousness, I commend you also for making the financial sacrifices necessary to be a good steward and sending your children to Christian school. My wife is a Christian school teacher. God bless them. I also join you in your disdain (if that word is strong enough) for the "Health-Wealth" teachers. I get sick to my stomach when I think about how much money is wasted on these clowns that could be given for true Kingdom work. Truth be told, I get sick to my stomach when I think about the money we waste being poor stewards in general. May God deliver us all.

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 Cor. 16:1-4 (ESV)
Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. [2] On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come. [3] And when I arrive, I will send those whom you accredit by letter to carry your gift to Jerusalem. [4] If it seems advisable that I should go also, they will accompany me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This passage is commonly used (Especially by MacArthur) to build an entirely new theology of church giving and is used as an attempt to surgically remove the whole Scriptural teaching on giving. However, as the passage clearly points out, this passage is not about the regular practice of regular church giving. This is dealing with a specific offering for a specific purpose: namely, either the empoverished believers in Jerusalem under persecution (See Acts 8:1) or the famine that hit Jerusalem in A.D. 44-45 (see Acts 11:28). Paul is asking for a special offering, not mandating a new method of church finance. This is a seperate issue from the issue of the tithe. Attempts to make this passage speak to the tithe, as far as regular giving from God's people are concerned, are not faithful to the Biblical text.

 

Tom,

Thank you for your kind words. How do you defend the tithe starting with the NT church?

A couple more NT passages to support Mac's famous one:

Luke 6:38 (NIV)
38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

2 Corinthians 9:6-7 (NIV)
6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.
7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

The reason I feel, Tom, that the OT tithe does not apply, is that it was for the OT temples, which included the city and national governments, intertwined with them. I don't believe MacArthur's dispensationalism has anything to do with his take here. It has to do with old religious system / new religious system (unincumbered from Israel's government/priesthood). If you insist we are still under the Levitical priesthood tithe, then better be giving about 23% as that's what the sum of their giving requirements were. Check out MacArthur's OT references.

God bless you bro Tom!

 

Tom,

Just curious what your take is on that first council that met in Jerusalem to debate the need of Gentiles to be circumcised. They agreed that the Gentiles did not need circumcision to be saved, but the Jewish believers still put a small list together of some things they thought the Gentiles should follow. It seems interesting that three food restrictions and sexual immorality made the important list, and the tithe did not? Here was the perfect opportunity to teach Gentiles their need to follow the Jewish tithe, and yet they didn’t. Curious what your take is on that. It is interesting that this list in Acts 15 does not end up in our discipleship materials and preaching, but the tithe usually does.

 

John,
The tithe did not start with the NT church, but according to historical data was practiced by the NT church. The tithe started with the people of God in the OT.
As has been quoted before, equating tithes with taxes is heremeneutically stretching the Bible. There are distinguishable words and contexts for both. See an earlier post for a longer treatment of such.
As for the two Scriptures you quoted, please show me in those texts where the practice of the tithe is abolished? These texts in no way abolish or contradict tithing.

 

PackerBacker, (I'm a Titan fan, by the way )

Acts 15 has nothing to do with tithing. The context has nothing to do with tithing. As for the "list" of things the council wrote, this list is not intended to be exhaustive. If it was, the council just gave freedom to commit murder (which is not mentioned), to steal (Which is not mentioned), etc. Further, the tithe was not under attack nor a subject of debate. The subject of debate was salvation relative to the Gentiles and Jewish practices as sign and seal of the covenant. Historians and commentators have written much about the fact that the early church just didn't have the problem with tithing that the contemporary culture has with it. As far as the food sacrificed to idols question, see Romans 14 and balance the two.
As for our discipleship materials, you honestly think we don't teach people not to commit fornication? That's a bit unfair.

So that's my take

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

Tom,

I'd be most interested in the historical data substantiating the tithe being observed in the NT church. If you've posted it previously, please forgive, as I am too lazy to search for it!

 

John,
I've alluded to it in earlier posts. I'm still trying to find that refutation I wrote some time back. I listed many of the works there. It took a lot of time to put together and if I have to rewrite that sucker, I probably won't get it done until spring! I'm covered up right now

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
PackerBacker, (I'm a Titan fan, by the way )

Acts 15 has nothing to do with tithing. The context has nothing to do with tithing. As for the "list" of things the council wrote, this list is not intended to be exhaustive. If it was, the council just gave freedom to commit murder (which is not mentioned), to steal (Which is not mentioned), etc. Further, the tithe was not under attack nor a subject of debate. The subject of debate was salvation relative to the Gentiles and Jewish practices as sign and seal of the covenant. Historians and commentators have written much about the fact that the early church just didn't have the problem with tithing that the contemporary culture has with it. As far as the food sacrificed to idols question, see Romans 14 and balance the two.
As for our discipleship materials, you honestly think we don't teach people not to commit fornication? That's a bit unfair.

So that's my take

[ November 21, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom,

Thanks for the quick reply. Since your Titans are not in the NFC, I wish you well.

I'm aware that Acts 15 had nothing to due with tithing and that the omission from the list does not mean everything else is permissible. Just thought it might have made the list if it was something NT believers needed to do. The Gentiles would have known that a “don’t do” like murder should not be practiced, but a “do,” such as the tithe, would seem to need taught. I’m sure there may be exceptions, but do we not have to teach new Christians to tithe today? It is usually a part of discipleship or preaching that they will be taught. The lack of this same type of teaching in Acts, and Paul’s letters is what puzzles me. Just seems something that important would have been brought up at least once.

I probably need to clarify what I meant by discipleship materials. I’m referring to those little “New convert” booklets or short programs that many churches in my circles use. The lessons usually follow this order: Bible, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Baptism, Church membership, and giving (tithe being included). Maybe we are from two different groups but I can honestly say that the discipleship materials I have seen do not cover fornication or foods not to eat. I should have done better to clarify that in the first post.

Thanks again for your take on the Acts 15 list.

 

Packer,
Remember, you keyed on something crucial: just because it's not on the Acts 15 list doesn't mean it's not fundamental to walking with God. Prayer, Bible study, etc., are not mentioned there either.

Please don't think I am equating these two by comparison and don't run with this: some people use the so-called "argument of silence" you allude to in order to justify a lot of things. For instance, some argue that Jesus and Paul never explicitly condemned homosexuality, therefore, we can ignore the OT teaching on the matter. Same is true of tithing, some say. I'm sure you see the fallacy of this. In many ways, another type of "argument of silence" may be valid. If it was a settled issue, why bring it up? Many commentators and historians note the widely accepted practice of tithing in the early church. Therefore, there was no issue to bring up (Neither was there an issue in homosexuality. They knew it was sinful).

And finally, I'm glad my Titans don't play the rejuvinated Pack this year. Favre would shred our depleted secondary

 

The reason why most people command tithing in the New Testament church is because they do not know what tithing was. It was a way for the Levites to be taken care of. It was only done once every three years! If a church is going to teach tithing, they should only command it three times a year. Christians are to give as God prospers them, which in most cases is always more than 10%.

 

[I Cor. 16:2] Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.