liberal Christianity

*Gods desire that all men be saved ....Thats universal.

*Jesus paid all of the penalty of the curse of God in full..destroying Death..Thats universal.

*No sin will exist in Gods New heaven and New earth...
....destroying sin completely...Thats universal.

*God is Infinite Love....Jesus Christ Name will Be named above every name.

*Thats universal.... reconciliation of Gods creation.

Is there a problem here with the idea of all of Gods creation being Redeemed ?
and Cant God just Snap his Finger, and everything would Be OK ??
by imputation ...AND Election ?

...without the eternal torture ?

Originally posted by Me2:
*Gods desire that all men be saved ....Thats universal.

*Jesus paid all of the penalty of the curse of God in full..destroying Death..Thats universal.

*No sin will exist in Gods New heaven and New earth...
....destroying sin completely...Thats universal.

*God is Infinite Love....Jesus Christ Name will Be named above every name.

*Thats universal.... reconciliation of Gods creation.

Is there a problem here with the idea of all of Gods creation being Redeemed ?
and Cant God just Snap his Finger, and everything would Be OK ??
by imputation ...AND Election ?

...without the eternal torture ?

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If God were to simply wink at the sin of mankind and make it all go away as you suggest it would require Him to violate His own Holiness and righteous requirement for justice. Plus, it would make the atoning death of Jesus Christ unnecessary and irrelevant. The Bible does not teach that everyone no matter what will be saved and go to heaven.

God cannot Violate Any of His self proclaimed justice when All requirements for acheiving his level of righteousness has been acheived...by himself

If Christ Represented, God the Creators "creation". Then sin and death are Abolished.
Through his Representation of being God the Creators....
"Lamb of God that takes away the SINS of THE WORLD"

Whether you or I know of this accomplishment...It Still Happened.
God provided a sacrifice for his creation..All Of It....

(one can only imagine God the creator placing one hand on his creation and one hand on His Sacrifice and transferring all sin of his creation to his sacrifice....His creation no longer having Sin...one sacrifice for all.)

Justice Has Been provided For.

So the Atoning death is required..but not necessarily God telling everyone what He did For his creation....so...He could snap his finger... and still be Holy and Perfect.

Originally posted by massdak:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
Rev. G.

I did a study of universalism a few years ago, and you'd be surprised. There are some socially and politically conservative Christians who do hold to varying forms of universalism. It can happen.

Joshua

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why in the world would you want to study universalism?
why study anything that is against scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]I am not answering for Joshua, but I personaly have studied other religions and beliefs. If I know the basics of what someone belives then I can show them how the God sent his son to die for them, and how what they belive will not measure up to the Gospel of God.

In Christ,
Jason

why in the world would you want to study universalism?
why study anything that is against scripture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not answering for Joshua, but I personaly have studied other religions and beliefs. If I know the basics of what someone belives then I can show them how the God sent his son to die for them, and how what they belive will not measure up to the Gospel of God.

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Indeed. An apologist is most effective if he understands the doctrines he will be confronting.

As a side note. Did ya'll know that Spurgeon thought most would be called and did not believe in universalism because the Bible said that some would be in Hell.

Charlie

So your saying that spurgeon believed that Jesus didnt pay for all Sin ?

Are you saying that in spurgeons beliefs are....

that Jesus didnt pay for all sin once and for all ?

or that death is not destroyed by the abolishment of the curse (by Jesus taking all sin into death) once and for all ?

....was spurgeon apologizing for Jesus not finishing the work on the cross and destroying the power of Satan ?

Spurgeon - A Defence of Calivinism

Here is an excerpt:

Could the Saviour, therefore, have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been possible? Could that have been the origin of the Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and, therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit. I have met with a great many believers, and talked with them about this matter; but I never knew one who could put his hand on his heart, and say, "I believed in Jesus without the assistance of the Holy Spirit."

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Spurgeon claimed the doctrine of grace, commonly known as calivinism.

Charlie

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by massdak:
I believe before Christ came, those like Abraham were those who believed God and were save as Abraham was.

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I agree. They believed God without hearing the Law of Moses. And what about after Jesus came? What about those who believe God without hearing the gospel?</font>[/QUOTE]Obviously, they are saved. Paul's point in Galatians and Romans is that faith in God (trusting God) has always been and always will be the way we come to God. That is the gospel itself. All persons throughout history are saved through Christ -- including Abraham, Adam and you and me.

But Spurgeon didnt believe that Jesus took all sin unto himself for all men.

or else how can there be some people still paying the cost of the curse after their physical death.

Spurgeon might have believed Jesus died for his sins.

..but not for ALL of Gods creation...Was his God too small ?
..or his God's Sacrifice insufficient for the task?

Originally posted by Me2:
But Spurgeon didnt believe that Jesus took all sin unto himself for all men.

or else how can there be some people still paying the cost of the curse after their physical death.

Spurgeon might have believed Jesus died for his sins.

..but not for ALL of Gods creation...Was his God too small ?
..or his God's Sacrifice insufficient for the task?

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God too small? By no means. That Christ's death is particularly applied to the Elect does not mean that it could not apply to all. It is SUFFICIENT for all.

More Spurgeon:

There must be sufficient efficacy in the blood of Christ, if God had so willed it, to have saved not only all in this world, but all in ten thousand worlds, had they transgressed their Maker's law.

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I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the pre-eminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the pre-eminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise.

Click to expand...

Charlie

Excellent post, BibleboyII !

What I see is Spurgeon expressing himself to the world about HIS conclusions concerning...The Greatest Questions in History...

Does God Actually Love His Creation ? Is He Really Sovereign?

His Answer..Why sure, He Loves HIS ELECT..and He Is Lord...To His Elect

(...seeing that God allows only his (pre-chosen before birth) Elect to be saved and the rest of his creation to suffer in eternal agony and torture...
...and of Course, to suffer for the "Glory" of God.)

Pretty Simple to me..Spurgeon added to God's Word..
He Didnt understand that God Sacrificed himself for All..
That God was the perfect rescuer of his creation...He Lost None

He Didnt See that My God Is Infinite Love..He Loves Infinitely..
He didnt see that My God died for you and me and EVERYBODY on this Planet.

He didnt understand that the death of Jesus brought about for everybody...
NO More Death..No More Curse..No More Sin..No More Pain

We're saved by imputation, and while We are alive, We are able to exist in the presents of God by Faith. ...either Imputation or Grace by faith...both through the same sacrifice..Jesus Christ.. He didnt see that.

Im sorry that spurgeon didnt see that...
He made a great impression to many..

but in my opinion..he fell short..

there are two absolutes: man is hopelessly depraved and without hope; God is sovereign, and He can do as He pleases.

In God's mercy He reaches down and saves some, whilst leaving the remainder to their own perdition. This is plain by scripture. The blood of Christ on Calvary was sufficient for all, but instead of some.

Cheers,

Jim

He Didnt See that My God Is Infinite Love..He Loves Infinitely..
He didnt see that My God died for you and me and EVERYBODY on this Planet.

He didnt understand that the death of Jesus brought about for everybody...
NO More Death..No More Curse..No More Sin..No More Pain

Click to expand...

Those are nice thoughts. What scripture do you base them on?

As I recall, the Gospel of John says over and over and over, that it is those of faith who will be saved. I recall Jesus preaching about Hell.

Why in Luke 16:18 Jesus says that there is a rich man in Hell. He wants to go back to warn his five brothers. But Abraham tells him that if they will not believe the law and prophets that they will no believe a man from the dead either.

So there are six in Hell right there.

Romans 9 adds Esau and Pharoah to those in Hell and also says that God will have mercy upon whom He has mercy. In fact Rom 9:19-29 is written to your very objection.

Like I said, it is a nice thought, it simply does not line up with scripture.

And nothing personal, but Spurgeon is still regarded as the greatest Baptist preacher in history. I would not quickly discount his words. Have you read his "Defense of Calvinism"? I put a link in my earlier post.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,
I appreciate your link to spurgeon..and ive been in the baptist denomination for 25 years..

Each man is responsble for their own revelations within their walk with God. Interpretations are like kind within a denomination...I look beyond spurgeon...no offense to the man. I only use his example of understanding and declare it limited in scope.

also please be careful when your interpreting "Hell"..especially from Jesus and parables..
Jesus used the common understanding of the people around him and wrapped their folklore about Gods wrath against the appropriate offenders..those who were against Gods free gift of grace..

Rev.21:4 no more death..no more sorrow,pain.
Rev.22:3 no more curse
1 cor.15:26 the last enemy that is destroyed...death

I look at the absolute plan and work the details into that.

You will find that interpreting scripture starts with the perspective of God's Nature,
which is love. His nature is to serve man..not to destroy him.

Lets see..vessels of wrath..those are people who fight carnal Law over grace..forever seeking God by following a list of rules. and expecting others to follow also..
they say "you can be saved, IF ..(you do this or that) "...
they just messed up. Its that simple to add to God's Free Gift of Grace.

Spurgeon was right in that God Chooses his Elect...but first He gives them the faith to believe...
But he was wrong in that their new Position in Christ...
because it is Now to Serve Gods Creation in Love.

God Asks His Children to submit to the needs of others and all Religion see's is judgment and condemnation over against people who were like us (in some time in our past).
Religion doesnt welcome them with forgiveness and mercy and selflessness and sacrifice....
Religion only offers them rules and laws and standards and methods.

and so many people within Religion miss their definition of obeying the Lord..
obeying to do What....LOVE..which means to submit to the needs of God and others..
God, well we are his servants and he says serve EVERYONE ALIKE..

Isnt that in Proverbs..God considers Unjust Weights an abomination....(pro 20:23)
treating one person differently from another

The followers of Spurgeon are taught to Judge..they Band together with like minded people and judge anyone who doesnt match up to the standards that they add to Gods grace...
Do they receive revelations of God ?., They wrestle with the love of God, in not really comprehending that Love is to Submit to the needs of others..not condemnation, but forgiveness and mercy. Even to the worst of people in their lives...Their Enemies.

Think about it. God is just saying that everyone is alike and each one requires and are searching for the same needs as yourself.. He picked you in advance to allow you to see Him (By Faith) and the plans that he invisions for his creation. He offers an invitation to join Him in Re-creating His creation.

He Loves everyone and will eventually treat everyone fairly and alike... In Love.
But learning to love with Gods kind of Agape Love is so foreign to mankind.
It requires total submission..


So what do you hear from spurgeon..
We're saved and you are going to be eternally punished..
Thats not agape Love...Is it Charlie ?

[ November 26, 2002, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

Me2,

I am not sure how much meaningful conversation we can have. I am perplexed that you seem to be explaining away Hell. Certainly, he painted pictures of Hell with Gehenna for example. But to say that since He used an illustration, that He is not referring to a real place at all seems to be incorrect. Hell is taught in scriptures. I cannot imagine anyone who believes in the reliability of sciptures not believing in Hell.

You will find that interpreting scripture starts with the perspective of God's Nature,
which is love. His nature is to serve man..not to destroy him.

Click to expand...

This is not what scripture says. God's primary characteristic is Holiness. Everyone who had a face to face episode with God reacted in terror because He is so holy.

Isaiah 6 may be the best example. When Isaiah encountered God, his reaction was

"Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Click to expand...

And Isaiah 6 has the reaction of the Seraphim, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts."

The essence of God's character is Holiness and it responds to sin with judgement.

"You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities;
Do two men walk together unless they have made an appointment?
Does a lion roar in the forest when he has no prey?
Does a young lion growl from his den unless he has captured something?
...
A lion has roared! Who will not fear? The Lord God has spoken, Who can but prophesy?"

Is this the words of a God who saves every man born of woman? Does this describe the "Love-god"?

RE: Rev 21&22. You realize that this event takes place after all those whose name was not in the Book of Life were thrown into the lake of fire, right? So the hope of Rev 21&22 is for the Elect only.

RE: vessels of wrath. According to Rom. 9:22 vessels of wrath are CREATED FOR THE PURPOSE OF DESTRUCTION. It clearly states that God chooses some to be destroyed.

In short, the Bible emphasizes God's character as that of Holiness and Justice, over His attribute of Love. His love is only within the context of covenant and the only way to enter covenant with God is through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

God said that "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

I appreciate your kind tone and hope that I have responded in kind.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Sometimes I get a giggle thinking about all the condescension of God towards mankind and people just soaking it up as reality....

Think of the all the descriptions of man's imaginations of their God in "heaven".
or of their imaginations of what God "physically" looks like...

Some "Believe" There is a throne, in a throne room floating around
where an infinite, formless, invisible, Spirit sits.

Same thing as a place of punishment...with fire and brimstone.

Its all the condescension of God towards man or the imaginations of man, of their God.

So I guess that Our challenge is to find out what is real and what is figurative.

Nice talking with You, Charlie


Me2

[ November 26, 2002, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

Me2,

I am not sure I get the point you are trying to make. When you say, "Sometimes I get a giggle out of all the condescension of God towards mankind and people just soaking it up as reality....", it seems to me you are disparaging the notion that God would in fact condescend to meet us where we are. Is this a right understanding of your intent? If so, is there some reason why we should not accept as a "reality" the idea that God would so "condescend" in order to relate to us?

Pastork

Hello Pastork,
Im stating that people not recognizing the figurative nature of the anthropomorphic language which God uses to describe himself to our finite understanding "are confused"…
Some even beyond the point of returning any time soon, because of pride and arrogance.
That Individuals who call themselves christians must be taught of God the Holy Spirit through personal revelations.

Some simple confusing Points:
*God is a spirit, not a man or even anything recognizable in our creation.
Num 23:19 1 Sam 15:29 Deut 4:15-18
*God is Spirit..not part, but "IS" spirit..Space doesnt contain Him…He's Shapeless, Formless
John 4:24
*God is Invisible..no human eyes can see him…but he is seen anthropomorphically in visions and dreams
Rom 1:20 Col 1:15 1 Tim 1:17 Heb 11:27
*God is Omnipresent (everywhere,at all times)
1 King 8:27 2 Sam 7:5 2 Chron 2:6, 6:8 Psa 139:7-10 1 Sam 66:1 Act 7:48-49

That God uses Anthropomorphic Language to accommodate our finite understanding of Him . He can only be "other than" anything we can think, or imagine of Him.

Does God have…?
Hands, eyes, ears, arms, beard, wears cloths, resides in specific locality (heaven)…etc,etc.
Deut 33:27, Psa 11:4 isa 59:1 Gen 11:5,7 Psa 2:4

God is formless, He's infinite, and space and time doesn't contain him..He's everywhere at all times.

Armed with Just that amount of info..One should question the "physical" revelations of "Heaven" and "Hell"and all "physical" entitiesmentioned or described within their constructs.

The Wrath Of God comes in many forms…one being confusion about God. It is manmade when one doesn't want to think about the differences between figurative statements and reality ….Wrath comes when man brings down An understanding of an Infinite God to be viewed as a finite man . A God that looks, acts, reacts, and emotionally feels.
One who is is capable of being overcome or outwitted. Or hasn't properly planned for his creation outcome. An understanding that brings God out of a perfect and infinite position, to one of being imperfect,…Just like man...(Rom 1)

So we now read in our bibles that Jesus who was a Jew speaking to Jews…in parables..littered with anthropomorphic and figurative statement and stories.
We have Matthew Mark Luke John..We Have Peter,James,Jude and John…all Jews still using this anthropomorphic statements and language attempting to describe things of an invisible and unseen nature.
We have paul Going to the Third heaven…in a vision…an anthopomorphic interpretation…..
We have The Great Revelation of John concerning Jesus His Lord..Visions of an anthropomorphic nature..
Its all Gobbledygook to our greek rational thinking unless we know what their describing through their understanding of their anthropomorphic way of thinking, about the things of God.

But still….It's figurative and only exists in our thinking.. Only in our imagination.
AND NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY…..

A Couple of my favorites are:

God Floating around in "Heaven" in a Big Chair. One can almost invision him going up and down and upside down like on a rollercoaster.
or Jesus coming to rescue his followers riding in the air on a flying horse and a great company following him…(it kinda reminds one of santa clause)

Anyhow, the language God uses towards mankind or condescension or anthropomorphic Language is figurative and is contained in a Large part of Gods message in the bible to men and women throughout history.

Reading the bible is an adult experience..not to be taken or interpreted lightly..and much of it …..not
literally


Me2