the shedding of blood

Helen,

Justification (as Paul uses the word) means that we are counted or declared righteous--as in "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness." Abraham was justified by his faith.

Right in the passage you quoted it tells us that a couple of times that justification is through faith:

Verse 22: Even the righteousness of God, through faith in Christ Jesus, to all and on all who believe....

When Paul uses the term "righteousness of God" he is speaking of justification, and it comes to us through faith, and is for all who believe.

Verse 24: ...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by his blood through faith...

The propitiation through which people are redeemed, through which people are justified, comes through faith. This justification is only for those who have faith.

Verse 26: to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

It is those who have faith who are justified.

Verse 28: Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Once again, Paul says it is justified through faith.

IMHO, the punctuation in the NIV is probably a bit off. It's really one big sentence, and I believe the phrase "for there is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" is a parenthetical phrase. So I would punctuate it more like this:

But now, apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets; even the righteousness by faith in Christ Jesus for all those who believe--for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God--being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously commited; for the demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Whew! Now that's a long sentence!

 

Helen,
Are you telling me that you believe that the death of Christ @ Calvary "justified" every single individual in the world?

I must ask you, can you please explain to me your understanding of "justification".

 

Interesting. Sounds like more support for GH's Christian Universalism view that she has been posting in this forum.

Ken

 

Helen,

So...what point are you making about the shedding of blood? You stated the subject goes deeper than Calvinism or Arminianism. I agree. So what's the bottom line we are garner from this?

Ken

 

But did you look up the definition of "justified" in a lexicon?

And how do you deal with the fact the the same passage three times says flat out (in verse 26 and 28 and 30) that it is those who believe that are justified?

Or what about Romans 5:1? After proving the Abraham was "reckoned righteous by faith", Paul concludes, "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God..."

Or what about Galatians 2:16?

Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in
Christ jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ...

Or Galatians 3:24 ?

Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith.

Or Galatians 3:8?

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations whall be blessed in you."

Over and over again Paul says we are justified through or by or out of faith. Only those who have faith are justified. How ever you want to interpret Romans 3:23 and 24, that interpretation must be in agreement with all these other verses, a list which includes at least three clear statements in the very same passage that say justification is through faith.

BTW, I looked up this verse on blueletter this morning, and 2 versions at least (the NET bible and the NLT) punctuate "For there is no difference, for all have sinned" as a separate sentence, and Young's translation punctuates it exactly as I did--as a parenthetical phrase. Since there is no punctuation in the Greek, I think it is unwise to develop an atonement theory that relies on one verse only and then only one punctuation of that verse, especially when numerous other verses argue against your theory.

IMO there's a lot more in scripture than Romans 8 that makes it a little muddy.... But first, please look up the definition of "justification" in a Greek lexicon.

 

Helen,

Then you must ultimately reach the conclusion that either the Christian Universalism that GH promotes in this forum is true, or, to back off a tad from that, the Biblical Universalism that Neal Punt advocates is true.

If one is justified/atoned for, he cannot be lost, but must be saved.

Ken

 

Thats "Universal reconciliation". and it centers around the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. all mankind receives the imputed righteousness of God.

While, within our life in this world, we unfortunately see from our finite viewpoint, God The Father drawing some to Christ..Think about it..the some are the Elect.

Christ example to the world is one of the ultimate servant. like it or not..thats is to be our eternal nature (Christs BODY)...While in Heaven...Who will we be serving?

Gods fallen creation...

while I get a chuckle at you guys who are calvinists..you got God choosing his predestined elect...while the armineans has mankind choosing freewill within Gods invitation to all (his elect). both DENY GOD CHOOSING who will ultimately be citizens of Heaven.

Who will these elect be serving..themselves..thats not agape love? ..think about it..
The Elect will be serving someone....

There is a rhyme and reason for pre-choosing the character of the Elect.

ONLY by faith will God allow one to see His Nature...Infinite Love.
He Loves Everybody..and will show that love to all..... eventually...
THROUGH his elect

 

Oh? Now it sounds like you are saying man saves himself. I thought you believed that man is saved by what Jesus did for him as his Substitute. Don't you believe that Christ's redemption is sufficient for salvation?

Ken

[ November 24, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

V. 22 gives the context as the righteousness which is for "those who believe." V. 23 is a parenthesis of sorts arguing that there is no one at all that does not need the righteousness of Christ that comes by faith. So the context explains itself and does not argue that the righteous is for the same all that sinned (regardless of your position on LA). In other words, I think it would be a misuse of this passage to argue either way about the limitedness or unlimitedness of the atonement. It simply is not addressing it.

BTW, I am curious as to what caused you to think that someone was attacking you. So far as I see, there was only a question about what your definition of justification was. I think that is a vital point and would be worthy of exploration in your understanding of this passage.

 

You may insist on trying to work it off yourself and tell me, in effect, "Take your money back. I don't want it." Then there is nothing I can do -- I have tried to help you by erasing your entire debt, but your response is going to be the telling factor.

But if the debt is paid, it is paid no matter what your response.

If you go to the store and pay off my debt, and them come to me and tell me what you have done, the store doesn't care if I pay you back or not. The debt is paid to whom it was owed.

You must believe that the sins of lost people will be paid for twice. Once by Christ and again by the sinner.
What would the storekeeper say to you if you tried to pay your debt off? He would look at the books and say Paid in Full.

 

Excellent point, Grasshopper.

Also, if a person is told his debt is paid off, and the store owner comes to that person and tells him to pay the debt again, he will look at him like he is crazy.

Wouldn't God be unjust and unfair to demand payment for the same sins twice - once at the cost of Jesus' suffering and then a second time at the cost of the person's soul for whose sins Jesus had already borne the punishment. The obvious answer is...yes.

Ken

 

It is not surprising that the Arminains posting here already found that to be true.

But when the Calvinists discover it - they become 3-point calvinist. Once you discover that God so loved the World - then it is just a matter of time before you accept 1John 4 - that Christ is the Savior of the World and 1John 2 that He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for those of the Whole World.

And then you are left with the "response" text in direct opposition to Calvinism. CAlvinism states
that scripture SHOULD only be in the form

"IF God selects you then He is faithful and just to cause you to accept the Gospel, cause you to be born again, cause you to endure until the end".

"ALL have sinned - ALL have fallen - but God selects a FEW to be justified".

"God so loved the FEW that He ... for them alone"

"I will draw a FEW from within Mankind unto Me"

-----------------------------

And YET we find it in the form...

"To as many as .... HE gave the rigth to...."

"Come to ME... ALL who are .... AND I WILL..."

And it is in the form "IF WE .... Then HE is faithful and just to ...."

OR in is in the invitation form "I STAND outside the door and knock - IF any man.... THEN I will..."

IN Christ,

Bob