Omnibenevolent God Creating Hell?

Hello Benjamin.

And just where have I said that He was not just? You are out of scripture again with nothing to support your 'fair'. Show me fair. Who said anything about fair?

And so do I and my brother Job also believes God is just. If it is a matter of strength, he is mighty! And if it is a matter of justice, who will summon him? 20 Even if I were innocent, my mouth would condemn me; if I were blameless, it would pronounce me guilty. JOB 9:19.

He knew that even if He were innocent he would still need God's mercy because people go to Hell because God chose that for them before they had done a thing. Do you consider that unjust? Then that is what you think of God because God told Moses He would have mercy on whoever and He would harden whoever. It doesn't depend on what a man wants or what a man does he cannot do anything to gain God's mercy because God says He decides who lives or dies. Is that evil? But you are a fallen creature judging what God can or can't do against scripture.

RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Where's the fair in there?

And how long have you been taking instruction from Elihu? HaHa! Have you harkened unto him you man of understanding? Jobs argument is being contended with by Elihu. Do you see your reflection in Elihu's argument?

Elihu says Job speaks without knowledge; his words lack insight and you agree with Elihu? Job 34:35.

God says He is just because He told Moses He can do as He likes because He is Sovereign in the Sovereign sense of the word. God is bound by no law. Whatever He does is righteous and glorious and since He says He blinds as He wills then one can only know that He is not like us. PS 50:21 These things you have done and I kept silent; you thought I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face.
PS 50:22 "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue:

Only in His kindness and love though.

The enfeebled one has arrived wringing his hands and wishing and hoping that someone will return his love. Poor old chap such a sickly god. Maybe He is bluffing? You thought I was altogether like you. But I will rebuke you and accuse you to your face. 22 "Consider this, you who forget God, or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue:

Can't find Sweet Jesus here how do you? Sounds like a threat to me.

An enfeebled god of course stripped of his sovereignty. I do not deign to use capitals for such a one. No choice no god. I reject such a god as the imaginations of fallen men my God is the Rock and the Rock is going to shatter His enemies.

No of course not like there is no inconsistency between love and hate and black and white or good and bad. But that is because you do not believe scripture nor understand love. Scripture says love never fails doesn't it? You try to make out that Hell is a natural consequence but it is not.

See what I mean? What for? Why does He send us to Hell? ...then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. If we deserve Hell then love has failed because I got it from God Himself that He kept no record of my sins. 1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...

One of the most profound passages ever written is a lie to you? Love keeps no record of wrongs so whether we deserve Hell or not it makes no difference to love because love keeps no record of wrongs. You err.

john.

 

I don't know you can say this. This is talking merely about the house of Eli. How do you apply that to the atonement in the NT?

 

John 5:39 Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have life; but these are they that testify of me.

 

Hello Marcia it's good to meet you.

The OT atonement was only a physical representation of Christ's atonement. It prefigured Christ but had no salvic property in itself but revealed the spiritual realities by physical means.

Christ's atonement is the only atonement that saves. Therefore I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " 1 Sam 3:14.

This means no forgiveness of sin whichever way it is viewed. He speaks of the atonement that saves.

Since there is only one atonement for sin and since God said He would never give an atonement for Eli's house then to reverse that by saying Christ died for all men must be false.


I believe Israel is a living representation of Spiritual Israel, the Church. Those of the faith of Abraham. Leviticus 16 is an illustration of a spiritual reality. Israel receives atonement no one else.

Is that understandable?


john.

 

There was no atonement made for Eli's house therefore if you don't believe that God swore an oath never to give an atonement yet you still hold that the world means all men then you do not believe openly the word of God. Limited atonement is proved beyond doubt with 1 Sam 3:14.

...even denying the Lord that bought them... What you are saying is that Jesus The Despot bought their debts by paying for sin? but that is not what Jesus has bought. He has bought them. It does not say He bought something for them. They became His property and it does not say Christ died for them.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Paul is talking to Christians who indeed have been bought with a price. But what has been bought is their salvation. God doesn't need to buy our bodies. He already owns them. Out of grace, He sent His Son to save our spirits. (There's that pesky John 3:16 again.)

 

Hello, johnp. Nice to meet you, too.

It's understandable what you are saying, but I disagree. For one thing, I do not believe that Israel is a living representation of the Church.

But beyond that, I do not think that the atonement spoken of here is the atonement of Christ. God is merely speaking of his judgment on the house of Eli and condemning them.

What do you do with 1 Tim 2.3-6?

(It looks like the Calvinist-Arminian forum that was shut down has migrated to this forum! )

 

johnp quotes in answer to

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

johnp quotes:

...salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles...

This is a misapplication lifted out of a different context by Paul, the Apostle John does not mention anything about Israel, neither does he use the word gentile in this entire epistle.

He is following the context of fellowship with God our Father in Chapter 1 and how we maintain it through the advocacy of Christ.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

So Christ propitiation extends to "the whole world" which lies in wickedness.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Propitiation and justification are two different things.

Propitiation is the satisfaction for the sin of the whole world.

Justification is at the individual level by grace through faith. This is the application of the Blood atonement which no lost person has, Eli or anyone else.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I am not the one who labeled Our Lord as a "Despot".

He "bought" or "purchased" both, those headed for destruction as well as the Church.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

HankD

 

Hello Marcia.

Cool.

No it was. It ceased to be when the Holy Spirit arrived. We have no need for illustrations when we have the reality. Anyway maybe we can discuss it some other time.

Without going into the atonement then I will rephrase what I said and say it like this: God swore an oath that no sacrifice would ever be given for Eli's house. Since the house of Eli never had a sacrifice made for them then Jesus did not die for them. That is still limited atonement.

If it is God's will that all men are saved then all we need to do is pray that all men are saved and we have everyman saved because this is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him. 1 John 5:14.

Your argument fails doesn't it unless you are a universalist? If we pray in God's will we receive what we ask for. Find His will and you can have everything. He will give you more love and more wisdom and more lavish than we can imagine if we ask for them because that is His will for those He loves.

john.

 

Hello StraightAndNarrow.

...even denying the Lord that bought them...

He does not say He bought them anything but that He bought them so your, But what has been bought is their salvation. Is unscriptural and you are reading into the text. ...the Lord that bought them... is what it says.

john.

 

Hello Benjamin.

I asked you to show me fair and you say what fair? The fair you were talking about please. Show me where it says things have to be fair. Simple enough question and the question is to you to show me fair not voice your opinion about me and Mr Calvin. You overstep the bounds of propriety. Those who bless me will be blessed by my Father.
I asked you to show me where I have quoted any man after you said I was an idolater and you have not had the decency to show me. I expect you to behave as a Christian and make amends or show everyone where I have given any reasoning outside of scripture. I think that fair.

You given many scriptures as if you are refuting something but I have no idea what you are on about. I asked you why you took Elihu's side against Job and you ignore it? What was Job saying that made Elihu react in the way you do?

Like I said respect is called for. We are on display let's us remember that.

I'll answer the bold bit but the bits either side make no sense to me.

Fatalism is the thesis that human acts occur by necessity and hence are unfree. Theological fatalism is the thesis that infallible foreknowledge of a human act makes the act necessary and hence unfree. If there is a being who knows infallibly the entire future, then no human act is free.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

And I think that is a good argument but I hold that He causes all men's acts thus alieviating myself from theological fatalism. So you did not know what I believed and attacked me anyway. Since God created us and knew what would happen to everyone anyway He logically created some for Hell. No one can get around that. Since I believe God is Sovereign then I believe theological fatalism to be a contradiction in terms. He is first cause.

john.

 

Hello HankD.

...salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles...

I would like you to take note of the fact that Israel is mentioned in contradistinction to the world. That's all. Who says the world means everybody that ever lived? Where did that definition come from? Why doesn't Jesus pray for it?

Not to Israel then a? Just the world. Who gives you the right to interpret the word your way and not mine? Scripture gives me mine. But the word is ambiguous and cannot take the strain of supporting a doctrine.

You are mistaken I did no such thing did I? I asked What you are saying is that Jesus The Despot bought their debts by paying for sin? Maybe you did not notice my bad grammar question mark.

I did not say He was a Despot I said He is The Despot. What's the problem with that.

john.

 

John 1
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

It's the world of sinners, all men, it comes from the Scripture.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Taking away/propitiation does not mean a guarantee of justification but it makes it possible.

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.


HankD

 

Hello HankD.

I see you didn't apologise for saying I put words into your mouth. Why not? Do you still believe I put words into your mouth? Just acknowledge the point please.

You place too much weight on 'all men' as the context of the passage is not talking of all men ever created. Yet the verse says He gives it. Now you must prove that all men ever born have had a witness about Jesus. PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

And you place your weight on those verses where 'all men' are and what do you do with, But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. Dt 29:4? Just what? Explain it please I would like to know your reasoning on the verses that say He blinds men or opens their eyes or keeps them in darkness. They contradict your theory.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Men and world are not being used as synonymous here is it? All men? Jesus was a man. Do you still hold that all men means all men ever born? This destroys your universal approach to words.

But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die. John 12:32.

Did Jesus really draw Himself?

the self-sacrifice and death of Jesus Christ to appease divine justice and to effect reconciliation between God and man
"propitiation." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (21 Jan. 2006).

That's because you have another definition of propitiation which is meaningless. The Saviour saves He does not enable dead men to reach out but He effected reconciliation between God and man not He made it possible. Are all recociled?

Who? Did He say, "Forgive the world Father." Everyman that ever lived? Are you sure? Yes or no? I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. John 17:9.

Are you saying Jesus does pray for the world, all men that ever lived, after I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. He explicitly says He doesn't? If you want the "Father forgive them." To mean everyone ever born then everyone ever born is saved because, I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me." John 11:42. Jesus only ever gets a yes when He prays but once.


john.

 

Hello Benjamin.

I do not cry about anything I mention it for your benefit not mine.

I don't care what you claim about me but we all have the obligation to love our brothers and sisters and we do owe each other.

You may have provided scriptures that seem to have nothing to do with anything and my saying I don't understand allows you to call me more?

I provided scripture that was ignored and that clearly show it is God who determines a man's conditions and you blank them.

My faith has been accepted by the Church throughout it's history whereas this omnikindness where did it come from? You dismiss 2000 years for your nonsense. You attribute far too much ability for a tree to make itself good. For the tree to be in good soil. It is God who makes trees good or bad not the trees.

Obedience is better than sacrifice.


john.

 

Johnp says:

Here are your exact words john

I didn’t say that all men have a “witness about Jesus”. The passage says that all men have light. The present world has at least the light of the reproval of sin:

John 16
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

In times past the light of creation:

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Deuteronomy 29:4
4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

It was a temporary blindness to the nation of Israel with the promise of the possibility of the blindness being reversed:

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

No He didn’t because the Scriptures teach that He is not a sinner.
I specifically used the phrase “world of sinners” in my definition of the “world” as used in Romans 5:12.

I did not say that all men are reconciled. Reconciliation comes through justification.

The sacrifice of Christ both appeases God’s wrath against the human race and opens the door of the possibility for individuals of that human race to believe on Him and become the children of God:

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Please note: I did not say how it is that these individuals are capable of believing on His name.

This is one prayer Luke 23:34 IS ANOTHER. In that instance He prayed for those who were crucifying Him, presumably the Roman soldiers. Were they currently of this world when they crucified Him?

I think so.

In this particular instance He is praying in particular for those apostles and disciples who were with Him.

I didn’t say that the prayer meant universalism. But let me ask you this, did the Father forgive these Roman worldlings who crucified Him?

HankD

 

Actually, condemnation is because people remain a sinner at Judgment due to the fact that their "UNBELIEF" has "PREVENTED" them from being saved, by Jesus's death.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,

because

he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Did God blind Israel, or did Israel blind themselves??

Jesus said he would gather them under his wings, but they would not.

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


I don't think you need to be a "rocket scientist" to see that Jesus came with the intent for the Jews to preach the gospel, but their unbelief "prevented" it from happening, and God's "JUDGMENT" was their "blindness".

Jesus came to save the whole world, but "Unbelief" prevents it from happening, and God's "JUDGMENT" is "condemnation".

I WOULD, YOU WOULDN'T=JUDGMENT/CONDEMNATION is a major theme running throughout scripture.

 

My exact words were a question HankD not a statement. I was asking if that was what you were saying as the question mark in my exact words indicates.
So I see this law at work in you. If I guess at a meaning you will shoot me down if wrong and if I don't guess but ask you do the same.
Where is there in my question any suggestion I was trying to put words into your mouth please?

Why did you use it then? I asked you why, if Jesus loved everyman ever born, He did not pray for the world you reply with, "Father, forgive them..."

Did the Father forgive those He prayed for? Jesus is always heard by His Father. What He asked for He received. Would you like to tell me what He actually prayed for? Was it forgiveness for the act that He instigated or was it to everlasting life? I know one of the guards was moved to witness.

Is there light without Jesus? Jesus is the light.

Then all men does not mean all men ever born does it? All men are sinners but One is not all men ever born.
It doesn't matter what the reason is for excluding Jesus from everyone else ever born because that means not everyone ever born.

They must be if Christ died for everyman because His sacrifice was a sacrifice of reconciliation given by Christ to God the Father on my behalf. That is what propitiation means. Your redefinition is unacceptable you have no authority to change the meanings of words.

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21.
We all like sheep have gone astray and He came to gather the sheep. We are the elect and we should not be confused with the reprobate. It wasn't Adam or Satan or ourselves that bound us over to do wrong it was God, For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:11.

Notice He is call The Good Shepherd not the careless Shepherd. He will save His sheep.

JN 17:20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. A contradistinction between us and the world.


john.