On the banks of the river

Dear Friends, I am certainly enjoying this thread. I expect to be away for a few days. Lord willing, I will be attending the Association of Statisicians of American Religious Bodies in Kansas City, MO, on Oct. 30 & 31. Being poor and scared, I will have to drive rather than fly, so it will be a 3 1/2 day excursion. I am looking forward to learning a great deal from this meeting, but I will miss being able to follow our discussions here on the Baptist Board.

Bro. Jeff, I have in the past thought about trying to get up a web site/page (I'm not even sure about proper terminology), especially to get out the information about the various Baptist groups in the United States. I do have a definite interest in this, but don't know how to set up, add to, or finance such an enterprise. Any tips would be appreciated. (The other situation has been a cause of much soul-searching for me over the past two or three years. Our churches and I seem to move further and further apart each passing year. If I ever settle, I'll let you know.) Also, I don't remember if I mentioned that I think you made a good point on the 9 or so rites observed by some Baptists in the past. We really continue many of them under a different names and never think of them as rites or ordinances (like dinner on the ground). This has reminded me that there is a piece in the most recent Viewpoints : Georgia Baptist History about the continuance of some of these rites among the separatist or non-affiliated Baptists of north Georgia. I will try to get some excerpts on here when possible.

Bro. Robert

Don't worry about expense for a web page. There is lots of free web space out there, and I have plenty arranged already, so that isn't an issue. If you have somethign you want to put online, send me a plain text file, or Word or Word Perfect for that matter, and I can get it up.

Have fun with the statisticians. I wish I was going, but alas, alack....

As for being afraid, I understand, but I am not. I think you know I live a mile from the Pentagon. That plane that hit it on 9/11 went right over the house, I heard the explosion, saw the smoke, and panic of everyone trying to get away. My wife works for the army, but not in the Pentagon any longer, and she paniced. So, for her sake I couldn't, and haven't yet. Everybody tells me it will catch up with me one of these days, but so far I haven't been afraid. Now, why there were 12 police cars at the post office this morning is another matter. Everyone seems to be in a tiz over anthrax, and I have gotten to be the neighborhood opener of suspicious mail.

Have a good trip and dont worry. It won't help a thing.

Jeff

I was going to make a regular posting this evening with a variety of questions for Mister/Uncle/Cousin Vaughn. I hope I catch him in time to wish him Godspeed on his trip.I will go ahead and write my posting and put it on later this evening and will anxiously await his return.
I will go ahead and tell you gentlemen that your flattery of my wife seems to have awoken a latent intense interest in Baptist history that I had never recognized in her before. We may have aquired a new lurker in here now. I believe it was Shakespeare who first said, "Vanity, thy name is Margie."
Serious posting tonight. May God keep you safe on your journey, Brother Robert!

- Clint

Good evening gentlemen -

I hope Mr. Vaughn is having a safe journey and honestly I'm a little disappointed that he will not be joining us for a few days because really my question du jour is best directed toward him, though, as always, I welcome any input. I had read on another thread involving our Brother Robert that he subscribes to an assertion that the Baptist faith is traceable to the New Testament. Of course, as a believer that the Baptist faith is a New Testament faith I find this very exciting. I would also like to re-assert that I am a collector of facts. I do not have the knowledge, resources, desire, arrogance or gumption to debate this topic. I simply am just trying to tie his theory to the facts I already possess.
In stating that Thomas Helwys is not the author of original Baptist doctrine, do you see him as the author of the "modern" Baptist movement? Did he leave England with the knowledge of the Baptist faith or did he discover it in Holland? Further, does this affect the "traditional" view of the relationship that we have with the Mennonites or were they Baptistically influenced by an already established faith or, indeed, was their belief system already an established practice.
I expect, sir, that you face many critics in the theory that you support and I have researched the subject lightly. From what I gather, even the Roman Catholic church is unable to prove their ties to the New Testament. This also brings up another point. By your assertions, we are not by definition Separatist Protestants. Am I correct in this assumption?
Let me stop there for the moment and say, I am having trouble coming up with synonyms for "assertion" and "theory". It sounds so arrogant. I apologize for this and wish we were face to face so that you can see that my tone is questioning rather than skeptical. I eagerly await your return.

Now, point two for the evening is a few more customs of my Southern Baptist church have occurred to me since our last discussions. Weddings and funerals had been mentioned, but also I wonder if any of the other sects perform a sunrise service for Easter. Our church does not observe a Christmas Eve service because our Episcopalian Brothers have a late night service in honor of the Holy Night and, being a small town, we are all friends and many of us enjoy joining with them in their meetinghouse. Also, historically, the brotherhood of the men of my church visited the penitentiary in my county until it closed in the early '90's. This was definitely a decree of Christ (Matthew 25:36). Another custom, though on the lighter side, is that our youth go Christmas caroling every year to the elderly and shut-ins. Also, on Mother's Day and Father's Day, we recognize the oldest, youngest, newest, and most prolific (boy, that sounds bad) parents in attendance. Last Father's Day I was the youngest father in our congregation, but more on that later. I wondered if any of you knew of other such campaigns.

Another "dilemma" that threatened our church body was that there was a "charismatic" movement in our church. I am not sure what experience you have had with this group of folks but they are seemingly very rapt in the Spirit. They sing the more progressive modern Christian hymns with a lot of hand waving and eye-closing and what not to which I am certainly not so opposed but my problem with this group of folks was that the teens are peer-pressured into performance of Spiritual gifts. If one does not demonstrate some mystical ability (such as babbling and frothing) they are put on the hot-seat. I have affirmed before that I feel confident in my faith and I see a much gentler manifestation of the Holy Spirit that is not so demonstrative. I wondered what your different sects interpret as spiritual gifts mentioned in 1Corinthians 12. I failed to see that the Spirit was given to the common good as asserted in the 7th verse. Comments?

Finally, I do appreciate the kind words about my family. I am very proud of both the girls in my life and my wife is just as beautiful on the inside as she is on the out. If you see her postings you will see she has a child-like spirit but if you were to check out her postings in the women's forum, from which we are mercifully excluded, you would also see she has a great depth and gentleness to her. Yes, I am QUITE proud. No one has ever had a better wife.

Well, that seems to be enough for now. I wish you gentlemen a good night. I will wait until Brother Robert returns to address the "Mister" enigma.

May God bless you gentlemen

- Clint

How does one go about tracing their history?
You go by your family tree and trace your lineage from one generation to the next and so on and on and on... ect. This is for secular history but the way I understand it and correct me if I'm wrong(I want to know the truth) even if I'm in error. The way you trace our belief is by sound doctrine.

I want to be standing on the banks of the river Jordan as Jesus was baptised looking forward looking back at his teachings and the doctrine that the early church embraced.

He set up a visible church and not part but the whole is still in the world today and will be here when he comes again. The body of believers that worship on that foundational rock Christ Jesus the walls and the roof that make up that assembly is none other than sound doctrine.

The scriptures say Wisdom hath builded her house and it is a house where all Gods children can hear the truths of God. Just because they don't believe them that doesn't make them not the truth. We are also warned in scripture there is another gospel and there is another jesus.

It also states there will come a time when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables.

What I said as I've heard preachers many times in the pulpit say I'll take a big helping of that myself. If the trumpet make an uncertain sound who shall prepare himself to battle. If that trumpet is unsound doctrine, then where do we stand?... Like the Apostle Paul said Let me stir up your pure minds! Just my thoughts that have been weighing heavy on my mind this evening!...

I Pray this was of the Lord and not of me and the Lord will bring much fruit... Good Night Brethren... Brother Glen

Just a quick chime in on the succession idea. I tend to agree with Bro. Clint, in that I don't think any particular denomination can chain link itself to one of the churches established by the apostles. (Perhaps one of the Eastern Orthodox types, might, but that isn't really the point of this thread). Perhaps it is because my education is as a historian, and I just don't see the historical documentation for it. However, I do see some of the Baptists as being fairly close to what I believe was apostolic practice and faith. So, I am not a "Landmarker" but many Primitive Baptists are.

S. F. Paul, who wrote a series of books on the Strict and Particular Baptists in England, noted that the first Particular Baptists were a disaffected Anglican priest joined by a Presbyterian, and they baptized each other. Unfortunately Mr. Paul did not footnote his work, and I don't know from whence his information came.

As for the charasmatic movement afoot in the land, it hasn't bothered us (Primitive Baptists) in the least. But it has gotten close -- a couple of the Old Regular/Mountain Union type churches have had it, and they were expelled from their respective fellowships.

As for modern hymns, commonly called Contemporary Christian Music, there is extensive discussion of this on the music ministry folder. I have also posted extensively there, so you can probably gather a good idea of Primitive Baptist singing services there.

More later.
Jeff

Brother Jeff, Clint, Robert and those other brethren who have joined our little band.

Jeff your responds on tithing was right on the mark and I have been doing this for years but I always felt guilty that I haven't been able to give money. How many time have I gone to the store and see someone with a sign that needed help. I help when I see someone in need. I'm in between jobs and I can't tell you how many times people have given us food and helped in other ways.

When I read your comment I thought of how many times a sister or brother would try to give something to a minister and he would refuse, knowing their circumstances. They didn't realize they offended a brother or sister who in my opinion gave all their living.

A dear sister in my church tells me many stories of different ways churches have supported the minister. Took him home to dinner, or gave him a chicken or filled his car with gas or many other kindneses. It doesn't have to be money.

When I was a kid I remember the church buying our minister bags of groceries and had a special meeting in the kitchen and gave them to his family.

Why do people refuse what God has layed on someone elses heart to give is beyond me. Maybe you can give me an answer and how did the early baptist churches tithe in America?
These were poor people and how did they support their ministers?

I'm reminded of the words of Jesus when he said he was thirsty, hungry, naked, and in prison and they took him in. Lord when did we see thee in this condition? In as much as ye done it to the least of these my brethren, ye done it unto me.

I can tell you how many times I've been in prison and I'm not refering to the natural kind. There are greater prisons in this life than the big house and how many people are in prisons now because of the state of our country. How many are in prisons because they don't know the peace of Jesus that passeth all understanding.

Like you said in your tithing post you had to vent a little and going to some of these post, I too have to vent a little because there is so much unsound doctrine being presented as truth. I hope you brethren will cast a mantle of charity over me and realize it was for a good cause... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

Good afternoon, Gentlemen -

I had to leave for work an hour early this morning, but as I have become accustomed to doing, I checked our gentle brotherly post here on the BB. To say the least our discussions have given me much food for thought and Mr. Tyndale's entry of late last night was no exception. I wasn't sure of his tone at the end of the letter when he stated he hoped that his statements were of God and not of himself. The sentence seemed melancholy, almost sad and doubtful. I meditated on this for a good part of my day, one of the advantages of doing the mindless work I do. These are my thoughts.
When we began this particular post, I was quite taken with the name "On the banks of the river". It sounded so old fashioned and, well, Baptist. After we had filled an entire page of postings, I wasn't sure that this name was adequate for the progression of our conversation. Now I know it is. "I want to be standing on the banks of the river Jordan as Jesus was baptized looking forward looking back at His teachings and the doctrine that the early church embraced." I think inadvertently, Brother Glen, you have characterized this whole topic. John the Baptist and Christ are the focal points of this account, but Matthew 3:1-2 tells us, "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" Mark 1:5 tells us that "ALL the people of Jerusalem went out to see him." John was speaking to the people there on the banks of the Jordan, to us. Christ came and requested baptism and those people witnessed it. Those people saw the manifestation of the Trinity clearly defined before them. What a marvel for those folks.
But now I wonder, who all would have been there? Certainly many were Jews who believed John to be E-sa'-ias, predicted by the prophet Isaiah but I have to stop and wonder and conjecture not all of them were. John was a non-conformist to say the very least. His father, Zecharia, was a priest, a well respected member of the community, a holy man who had had the honor of being the one priest to enter the temple and burn incense the year of John's conception, and here was his son, living in the wilderness, wearing camel hair and a leather belt. He lived on honey and grasshoppers. I think to some of those folks on the banks of Jordan, John was an oddity. They came to see the show and inadvertently witnessed the beginning of the faith that we have held dear for 2000 years.
And back to the believers there that day. Would they have all seen the Baptism of the Messiah in the same way? I think that they all saw it in their OWN way. They narrated it to the other people and neighboring villages their own way. And this is what our separate sects do to this very day. I use this post as a resource in my gathering of facts about my denomination, but rest assured, whether our denomination goes back 40, 400, 2000, or one year, we are all here now, witnessing for ourselves the manifestation of the Trinity, the beginning of the ministry.
Gentlemen, the times change, but the people don't. The geography is half a world away and the culture is 2000 years ago, but the witnesses stay the same. The trumpet IS sound doctrine in our faith. We cherish that and pride ourselves on it. We turn to our own witnessing of the same event to base our varied practices on this but it's all the same story. I'm glad we started with "back to our roots". It gave us the common ground necessary for this discussion.
I pray God blesses you for your inspiration, Brother Glen.

- Clint

Another posting this evening.

Hi folks

Another day is nearly past and gone, and I am still typing with one hand. I am supposed to go to rehabilitation tomorrow to try to get back to work. The age of 43 is entirely too early to be retired. But they won't take me, I fear, cause the doc says I am not ready yet.

Bro. Glen, I often feel like saying what you said above about sound doctrine. In fact there are lots of things that ought to be said, but it would just start a fight, and there ain't much fight in me anymore. It puts me in mind of some of the things we say here, any maybe in your neighborhood too, such as they can't see the forest for the trees. That forest is the incomprehensible electing love of Jesus Christ. That love was sufficient for me, I hope. That hope of eternal life which was begat in my soul at a time when I was very small. That indellible memory of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, for me, I trust. When loses sight of that one is just plain lost, and I know you know what I mean when I say not in the eternal sense. So many here are lost in that way, or so it would appear. They don't see the forest for the trees. That forest is, I believe, Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. I am not saying that other discussions aren't important, but they pale in comparison to the love of God. I will get out of the stand now.

Glad you agreed with the tithing thing.

Bro. Clint, I appreciate your sermon. I can empahtize with the emotions, which were stirred in your soul when it was written. I don't know what you believe on a lot of things, but that was the testimony of one who sees the forest. Maybe not the same way Bro. Glen, Robert and I do, but I do believe you see the forest.

Now, maybe we cam reason together to determine the marks of an apostolic church. Elder Sylvester Hassell wrote a good summation in the 1880s, which might be a good place to start. http://www.primitivebaptist.org/writers/hassell/history/chapter09.asp

In sum, these marks according to Hassell are:

1. Regenerated membership
2. Proper Baptism
3. Communion at the Lord's Table
4. Strict Church Discipline
5. Independent Church Government
6. Religious Liberty
7. Christian Deportment
8. Equality of members.
9. A God Called Ministry
10. Ministerial support
11. Biblical missions
12. Church recognition in the World

Of course these broad terms could mean lots of things to different folks. What they mean to Primitive Baptists is eloquently explained by Elder Hassell in the link given.

BTW, if you are curious, here is the posting on tithing that got my dander up.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=000175&p=3

Enough for now.

Warm regards
Jeff

[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

Brother Jeff! Where on earth do you find all these websites?
I looked at your link and will have to read the end of it later. One point off the cuff though, is the claim that infant baptism began in Africa as a superstition.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The practice of infant baptism (or infant church membership) is a weak, thoroughly antiscriptural, idolatrous superstition, which most probably arose in North Africa in the third century from the false idea of the magical, regenerating, saving power of water, and which did not become general until the fifth century, thus securing its triumph in the Dark Ages about the same time with the establishment of the papacy; and it is worthy of the Dark Continent and the Dark Ages. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now you know sir, that I believe in believer's baptism and a regenerated congregation, however, I have heard it stated that infant baptism may have begun in the Acts of the Apostles where we have accounts of whole families being baptized.Acts 16:15, Acts 6:33) Though infants are not mentioned here, some assume that this may have affected children younger than the age of (spiritual) consent. Just a little food for thought. Excellent direction to take the thread in. I will read the definition you have presented with interest. Thanks, Mr. Weaver!
(By the way, this isn't the posting I promised in my last posting. I just get so doggone excited to see you LOL.)

- Clint

Ok brethren, and especially Brother Clint where do we go from here? We are standing on the river Jordan looking forward looking back at the teachings and doctrines of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The way you illustrated it was very moving and those who witnessed that very day and were convicted in their heart could only go one place, into the Jordan river and follow their Lord and Savior.

We have gone back to our roots and have stood on the banks of the river. Into the Jordan river is where all true believers go. Do we need to be rebaptized again? John said I indeed baptise you with water but there cometh one after me who shoe latchets I'm not worthy to unloose he shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

We now stand in the river as Jesus stood in that river 2,000 years ago. We have come up out of the water of Gods Love. We are Baptist and not by name only but by Doctrine and Practice. The river as one of the writers of old stated flows from the throne of God. A river that bring comfort to our feet as we daily follow our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. A river that because of his sacrifice we are baptised into, not only his death, burial and resurrection but our old man is buried and we are raised to a new life in Christ. A river that now the depth of his love has become so deep we cannot pass over as we continue tasting the benefits of all the Godhead in our daily walk with him and those who follow him as we do... From New Birth... To Grave... To Glory!

God Bless You All... Brother Glen

Dear Bro. Clint

I understand what you are saying on the infant baptism issue. As I understand it there are at least three theories about how the practice originated. The one cited by Elder Hassell, the second one you cited above, and a third which perhaps might be the most reasonable (perhaps not). I hope I am getting the gist of the story straight. The third alternative was that one of the late Roman emporers had an infant son who was dying. Having read that baptism was necessary for the remission of sins, insisted that the Pope baptise his critically ill infant son, and the Pope did so. This would have been mid-4th century, if I understand correctly.

Now for the underlying question, is it proper? Obviously I don't think so, or otherwise I wouldn't be a Primitive Baptist. But in truth I think it is sufficiently ambiguous in scrpiture that people of good faith can disagree about it, and have for centuries. And yes, I realize that some on this board will take umbrage that I would even suggest such an ambiguity. But I try to keep some where near the surface of my memory, we know in part, see in part, and look through a glass darkly.

I don't believe there is a perfect apostolic church on the face of this earth. I don't believe anyone of good faith has a complete absense of truth nor do I believe that anyone has it 100% correct either, including Primitive Baptists.

We have been accused, perhaps correctly, of being an excessively logical and consistent faith. We have been accussed of not being able to see the paradoxes in scripture. Perhaps there are paradoxes there--but I don't see that there are any. The problem is, IMO, rightly dividing the word of truth -- coming to an understanding of what constitutes sound doctrine. Understanding of that truth comes by faith, by study, by experience, and every one is different in those things. But in the wind up, it won't make any difference, we will know as we are known.

I have rambled enough.

Warm regards
Jeff

Brother Jeff would you tell me what is a Landmark Baptist... Never heard of one out here... Brother Glen

Hello Gentlemen -
I feel there is a relevance to this topic I wish to post tonight to the role of the membership of an Apostolic church. I want to talk about the role of the women.
Last night I told you how much I adore my wife and that got me thinking about an organization within the ranks of the SBC of which I am rather proud, the Women's Missionary Union or WMU. As a Virginia Baptist I am proud to say that it was the WMU who in 1955 dedicated (in other words paid for) the Virginia Baptist Historical Society wing of the Boatwright Memorial Library on the campus of the University of Richmond. You should come down to see this place as it is right down I-95 from you, Brother Jeff. I wrote an article about my visit there at http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/historianreport.html
I will not go into their history as you may find it at their link:http://www.wmu.com/
I have a personal history of the efforts of these women through the years in my files at the church and I will share that with you after I find it Thursday, but suffice it to say, the women take on their share of the burden when it comes to running the church.
They (WMU) sponsor the Acteens, and the GA's of which Jennifer is a member. From the records I have in my possession, I can tell you that whenever a need arises, so these women rise to the occassion be it money, caring, or ministry.
ALL the women at my church support our ministry faithfully. The kitchen committee, flower committee, baptismal committee, our secratary, without whom I would have NO records to report to you. The choir is predominately female, those who watch the children and sponsor their activities. I could go on and on.
Think about what a different flavor the scriptures would have if there were no women mentioned: Mary, the mother of Christ; Elizabeth, the mother of John; the prostitute who annointed Christ with oil; Mary, sister of Martha and Lazarus who washed Christ's feet with her hair no less. Indeed, it was Mary Magdeline who stayed with Christ throughout His ministry, remained with Him at the cross, attended to the burial, and discovered the empty tomb.
No wonder I don't support women pastors or deacons - they've gotta leave us SOMETHING to do!

Good night gentlemen and may God keep you in his care.

OH! One other note. Even before you had mentioned taking me on a tour of the bookstores in Arlington, Margie and I had already discussed arranging a meeting with you some day, Brother Jeff, since you are right here in our neck of the woods. Careful what you ask for...

- Clint

One other woman I forgot to mention; the woman at the well. This has become one of my favorite lessons. I may make a posting some time on it but my main point with this story is: why, of all the people Christ met on a 6o mile journey from Judea to Galilee would He stop to talk to this woman? I understand most Jews hated Samaria so badly that they even circumnavigated Samaria by crossing the Jordan river twice to avoid it. I think this is a very beneficial lesson on Christ picking those with charisma and honest approach. She had nothing to lose by being immoral. She was damned for being a Samaritan, being a woman, and the inability to worship in a temple. Christ's wisdom to see past that saved her and in turn saved who knows how many more. She is the only encounter mentioned in the scriptures during Christ's journey home. I find that VERY significant.

- Clint

Bro. Clint

You have me on the next to last post. I confess to knowing nothing of the WMU. We have no church auxillaries in our tradition. None, nada. So, will have to read up on it a bit to be able to discuss it intelligently.

I understand the underlying point, however, to be the role of women in the church. If this indeed the point, I think you illustrated it well from scripture amd example.

I hope some of the female lurkers (Kathy) might decloak and comment.

As for coming up, please do. I give a mean 50 cent tour of Washington, D.C. Saturdays are probably the best days to go booking. Some of them hold limited hours, so give a note or a ring on the phone, first so I can make an appointment. I am in the phone book.

Jeff

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

Good afternoon, Gentlemen - Just a qick note as we have much preperation for our night out with Jennifer. Thanks for the reply, Brother Jeff. Is Kathy a lurker in here? That's great because this gives me the opportunity to tell her that I posted on her "web page" thread in the "members only" forum. I think she would find the advice and links helpful, as I, too, am novice at this but have been very happy with the results on my own web site for my church. Totally unrelated to this thread, yes, but I sure do enjoy talking to you fellows.

- May God bless you

- Clint

Bro. Clint

Have a good time tonight. I don't do Halloween at all, my dad had a sister murdered on Halloween in 1970, so it has been verboten since. The only place we went when were kids was to my grandparents house, and they lived next door, so it was never a big thing. My whole family was never much on any holiday for that matter.

Kathy mentioned in another posting that she had been lurking here abouts, so hopefully she will jump in. I am curious about her take on things. It will be good cause my brain is empty now. I will have to do some reading, praying, pondering and such to fill it up again.

Brethren I too need a little rest but I pray the things I said didn't come on to strong.

The family is going out tonight to my daughters church for a celebration they call the fall festival. We are taking my granddaughter Bethany 4 months old in a winnie the pooh outfit her other grandmother made.

I really enjoyed the illustration of the woman at the well and the different applications Brother Clint made of the women in the church.

I know Brother Jeff with echo what I feel in my heart of the many fathers and mothers in the dear old church that have passed our way and the many lessons they left for us to follow. Those God fearing men and women who sought out the straight path and followed the old landmarks, their forefathers followed.

Enjoying the many new web sites and articles as the come in. So much grist for the mill and I am grinding away as time permits. If I find any I think would be of interest I will send them your way... God Bless You All...
Brother Glen

Bro. Glen

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question about Landmarkers, above. As I understand it, these folks believe that you can make an uninterrupted chain of churches back to the time of the apostles. This is the statement on one of their web sites.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Only Scriptural Baptist churches can make a legitimate claim to an unbroken succession back to the time of Christ and the apostles. Christ only built one kind of church and that church is described in detail in the New Testament. The only churches meeting the requirements of that description today are true Baptist churches. Baptist churches have existed in every age since their founding by Christ, though they have not always been known by that name. We do not deny that there are those in other so-called “churches” that have been born again by the grace of God. We do deny, however, that these man-made organizations are true churches of our Lord Jesus Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the URL with additional information: http://users.aol.com/libcfl/libc.htm

I don't know the fellow who does this web site, perhaps others do. But, I am not so narrow in my definition of what constitutes a true church and prefer Hassell's notions much better, and I don't completely agree with Hassell either, but that is another discussion entirely.

I hope it helps a bit.

Jeff