God responsible for evil?

Me4Him,

No, your argument makes no sense. "if you love me, I will love you"? Are you kidding?

How many times do we have to bring up Romans 9 as proof that your conclusion isn't true?

 

So, Me4Him,

Can the angels still rebel at this moment? What (Who - hint hint) is preventing the angels from sinning?

 

God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11
God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30
God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12
God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35
God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16
God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6
God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29
God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27
God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20

Cited from http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/sovereignty.html

 

If you are a parent, when you and your wife created your child....if it later commits evil; are you responsible for creating evil?

Who is ultimately responsible for the execution of evil? The one committing it, or the one who created the one who committed evil?

 

I wanted to share an excellent article on God's absolute sovereignty over everything.

It's worth reading because it is almost all scripture:

http://www.eschatology.com/sovereignty.html

 

I don't think anyone except God knows the answer to this. I always thought that with the angels, it was a one-time deal. The ones who rebelled did so, and the others did not and that was the end of it. But that may be speculation and we don't really know that much about angels, do we?

 

If you are a parent, when you and your wife created your child....if it later commits evil; are you responsible for creating evil?

Who is ultimately responsible for the execution of evil? The one committing it, or the one who created the one who committed evil? </font>[/QUOTE]I think this is a good point!

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion so far.

 

Joh 3:16 For God so loved "THE WORLD", that he gave his only begotten Son,

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn "THE WORLD";

but that "THE WORLD" through him might be saved.

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only,

but also for the sins of "THE WHOLE WORLD".

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon
all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one
the free gift
came upon
all men unto justification
of life.

Interpreting Ro 9 in the manner of Calvin, makes these verses out to be a "lie".

Do you agree with that??

 

I don't think anyone except God knows the answer to this. I always thought that with the angels, it was a one-time deal. The ones who rebelled did so, and the others did not and that was the end of it. But that may be speculation and we don't really know that much about angels, do we? </font>[/QUOTE]He's refering to the "Holy Ghost" being present in the world, but the Angels became "Demons" before their arrivial "on earth".

The "Holy Ghost" is only "Restraining them", not making the "Choice" for them.

If the Holy Ghost was preventing them from sinning, they wouldn't be demons in the first place.

 

If you are a parent, when you and your wife created your child....if it later commits evil; are you responsible for creating evil?

Who is ultimately responsible for the execution of evil? The one committing it, or the one who created the one who committed evil? </font>[/QUOTE]I think this is a good point!

BTW, I'm enjoying this discussion so far. </font>[/QUOTE]My question would be:

Doesn't God have more control over over His creation than parents have over their children, especially after their children have left home?

 

It depends on what you mean by "control." Do you think God takes over our will?

 

No, Marcia, He doesn't "take over" our will, He changes our hearts and we therefore have changed desires toward Him. Our "heart of stone" is removed.

That's the key.

 

This is taken from a quick post on Pen of Iron, my website, rather sophomoric but it will help

The "problem of evil"

Throughout the centuries theologians have racked their brains trying to explain how "evil" natural calamities can be permited by an absolutely sovereign God who is good and who is Love, without that making God evil.

ASSERTION: the "problem of evil" is no problem at all because it doesn't exist.
It is a chimera (illusion) born out of the self-righteousness of man.

Let us test the validity of the assertion with the fire of the WORD

1) Romans 3:23
All have sinned.

2) Romans 6:23
The wages of sin is death.

Since natural calamities execute the just reward of sin by causing death
and
Justice is not evil

We may conclude that

God is Just in allowing, indeed causing, such deadly calamities and therefore cannot be evil

It is not in vain that the Word says in Deutoronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, Just and Right is He.

...and to think Aquinas could've been spared the trouble had he read the Bible.

 

Mt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This "world" is a "wheat field" God planted, and in his "Foreknowledge" knew an "Enemy" would sowed "tares" among the wheat, so like a "Wheat field" it was planted with the "INTENTIONS" of it being "Reaped" then "BURNED".

The "NEW EARTH" will be a "Wheat field" in which no tare will appear and will never be reaped/burned.

This earth contained a tree of life and a tree of "Good/Evil", and man was commanded, but not restrained, from eating of the tree of good/evil.

The "NEW EARTH" won't have a tree of good/evil.

WHY didn't God just simple omit the tree of Good/Evil from this earth and avoid all it's "Evil"?????

Scripture is "VERY CLEAR" as to why God planned it this way.

De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

God didn't "WILL", "Predestinte" man to sin, but gave mankind the option, it's because of man's "FREE WILL", not God's, this earth will be reaped/burned.

and none will be on the "NEW EARTH" except those who have "CHOSEN" to "serve God", it won't be necessary for ""CHOICE" to exist there, the "CHOICE" is made here.

It's because God gave Man a "FREE WILL CHOICE" between the "Tree of life" and the "tree of good/evil" this world is in the shape it's in today,

and whom we "CHOSE" to serve in this world is who we'll spend eternity with, God/Satan.

Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;

 

More specifically, evil is the absence of God. Sproul suggests that Satan became evil because God withdrew some of Himself from Satan. He also suggests that God changed Eve's inclination so that she would become deceived. If Sproul is correct, then in a very real sense, God did create rebellion against Himself.

Before you have a cow over this, follow the rest of Sproul's reasoning. Ask yourself, why would God do something like this? To quote Sproul:

Edited to add: This is from Sproul's book "Almighty Over All - Understanding the Sovereignty of God".

 

The context of Is. 45 is God’s testimony of His sovereign power. “I am the Lord, and there is none else ... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa 45:5-7). God is in ultimate control of all things, even those which appear to men to be evil. He can use all things for His purposes and His glory.

Jas 1:13 tells us that God is not the author of evil in the sense of sin and lust. Sin arises from man’s fallen heart, not from God (Jas 1:14-15; Mt 15:19-20). Thus Isa 45:7 cannot be speaking of moral evil. The thrice holy God is not responsible for the evil that entered His universe, as many blasphemously charge, and this verse does not support such a wicked idea.

The testimony of 1Co 14:33 says God is not the author of confusion. This is in the context of the New Testament assembly and the exercise of spiritual gifts. Thus we know that Isa 45:7 does NOT teach that God creates confusion or error or problems in churches or among people. God can use any sort of problem and can work all things for good for those that love Him (Ro 8:28), but this does not mean that God necessarily creates the problems of life, or that He wills for such things as sin and moral failure to occur. God used the stubbornness of Pharaoh’s heart to glorify Himself, but God did not create the sin in Pharaoh’s heart. God will use even the wicked to glorify Himself; the Bible tells us He has made the wicked for the day of evil; but the Bible also tells us that God’s express will is that every man would be saved (1Ti 2:3-4; 2Pe 3:9).

Things Hard To Be Understood: Is. 45:7

 

R.C.Sproul is a partial Preterist and a Calvinist--hardly someone whose reasoning I would dare to follow.

 

God has "NEVER" created "ANYTHING",less than "PERFECT", Satan included.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:

Pr 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Eze 28:17 I will cast thee to the ground,

Is God full of "PRIDE"??

Taking "advantage" of poor helpless people he created just so he can be a "BIG SHOW OFF" for a "nanosecond" of time on Judgment day,

after which he'll blot out their names, and even the saved won't remember or his "WRATH",

leaving these souls in "Torment" for "Eternity",

IS NOT A GOD OF LOVE

Sproul's god had a "mean, sadistical" streak running through him, one which required God to "transgress his own law", making "HIM", not only a "SINNER", but also a "LAIR".

God doesn't need to create "EVIL", all he must do is give both "Angels/Man" the FREE WILL to do either "Good/evil".

 

More specifically, evil is the absence of God. Sproul suggests that Satan became evil because God withdrew some of Himself from Satan. He also suggests that God changed Eve's inclination so that she would become deceived. If Sproul is correct, then in a very real sense, God did create rebellion against Himself.

Before you have a cow over this, follow the rest of Sproul's reasoning. Ask yourself, why would God do something like this? To quote Sproul:

Edited to add: This is from Sproul's book "Almighty Over All - Understanding the Sovereignty of God". </font>[/QUOTE]Just a quick correction - the above quote and the book "Amighty Over All" was written by R.C. Sproul Jr. - R.C.'s son. I have not done a deep comparison of the two's theologies, however, they seem to be in agreement on most things, but they are surely not identical in all their thinking.

 

Thanks - I should have added the Jr. Sorry about that!