Right or Wrong?

Luke 16:27-31 "27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
I know this is a little different situation, but the point is the same. Moses was not around then, the written word was. And Abraham told him, if they would not hear that they would not hear though one came from the dead. Now that would be a greater feat than trickery, so why would you think trickery would work? I know what some are thinking, "well I've trick people already and they got saved. Maybe so, but they didn't get saved because you tricked them, they got saved in spite of your trickery.

Let your yea be yea and your nay, nay.
I know this was pertaining to swearing but it goes further than that. He was showing them that your word ought to be gold (truthful) all the time.
God is truth. And God is light. There is no darkness in Him at all. Then Jesus said that we are the light of the world. Lieing, trickery is decietful and therefore is darkness. We should not be partakers of darkness. Let's spread the Gsopel with truth; ie. His Word, Our lives and testimony, showing them through example. I'm not bragging on myself, because I'm nothing without Christ, but I have brought many to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, who would not even look at a Bible, by just repeadily witnessing to them and letting Jesus show through in my Christian walk. When they see something in your life that they don't have, and that's true joy, then they will get curious.

 

Amen Joey!

Jefferson,

I have great faith in our God, that if I WERE going to become saved before I died, that He would provide the means for me to hear the truth without having to use sin. Otherwise, what kind of God would I be believing in?

I would caution you in how far you take this argument, it sounds to me like you are almost saying that your way is better then God's. Do you believe that? Do you trust God, or your own deceiptfulness?
~Lorelei

 

2 Cor 12:16-17
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit. Certainly I have not taken advantage of you through any of those whom I have sent to you, have I?
NASU

I would like to say Amen to Joey and Lorelei.

Here is a quote from Barn's Notes that I thought were excellent. Please take time to read them:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Corinthians 12:16
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
[But be it so] This is evidently a charge of his enemies; or at least a charge which it might be supposed they would make. Whether they ever in fact made it, or whether the apostle merely anticipates an objection, it is impossible to determine. It is clearly to be regarded as the language of objectors; for:
(1) It can never be supposed that Paul would state as a serious matter that he had caught them with deceit or fraud.
(2) He answers it as an objection in the following verse. The meaning is, "We admit that you did not burden us. You did not exact a support from us. But all this was mere trick. You accomplished the same thing in another way. You professed when with us not to seek our property but our souls. But in various ways you contrived to get our money, and to secure your object. You made others the agents for doing this, and sent them among us under various pretexts to gain money from us." It will be remembered that Paul had sent; Titus among them to take up the collection for the poor saints in Judea (2 Cor 8:6), and it is not at all improbable that some there had charged Paul with making use of this pretence only to obtain money for his own private use. To guard against this charge. was one of the reasons why Paul was so anxious to have some persons appointed by the church to take charge of the contribution; see 1 Cor 16:3; compare the notes on 2 Cor 8:19-21.
[Being crafty] Being cunning That is, by sending persons to obtain money on different pretences.
[I caught you with guile] I took you by deceit or fraud. That is, making use of fraud in pretending that the money was for poor and afflicted saints, when in reality it was for my own use. It is impossible that Paul should have ever admitted this of himself; and they greatly pervert the passage who suppose that it applies to him, and then plead that it is right to make use of guile in accomplishing their purposes. Paul never carried his measures by dishonesty, nor did he ever justify fraud; compare the notes on Acts 23:6.

2 Corinthians 12:17

Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?
[Did I make a gain ...] In refuting this slander, Paul appeals boldly to the facts, and to what they knew. "Same the man," says he, "who has thus defrauded you under my instructions. If the charge is well-founded, let him be specified, and let the mode in which it was done be distinctly stated." The phrase "make a gain" (from pleonekteoo (NT:4122)), means properly to have an advantage; then to take advantage, to seek unlawful gain. Here Paul asks whether he had defrauded them by means of anyone whom he had sent to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Lorelei wrote: "WE don't need to do anything deceiptful, or disobey any of God's Word to get people saved, because WE can not save anyone."

Joey M wrote: "Lieing, trickery is decietful and therefore is darkness."

Both of you are missing the point. The question on the table is whether or not the use of lying and trickery are "disobedience" and "darkness" if they are used to advance God's kingdom. The stories of the Egyptian midwives lying to Pharoah's officers in Exodus 1:17-22 and also the story of Rahab answers the question with a resounding "NO! The use of lying and trickery are not "disobedience" and "darkness" but rather they are godly actions if they are used to advance God's kingdom"

Did the U.S. military sin when they gave false (ie. lying) signals to the Germans
about where they were going to invade?

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]