For Whom Did Christ Die? - C.H. Spurgeon

If such is the case, the impklications are that (1) God created evil men for His own purposes; (2) God's mercy is limited, that is, it is not extended to those whom He has created to be evil; (3) God created certain particular individuals for the express purpose of sending them to eternal torment; (4) God takes pleasure in creating evil men and consigning them to hell forever.

Doesn't make God out to be particularly inviting...unless of, course, you are one of the lucky individuals He hasn't created for evil and for the express purpose of sending to hell...does it?

 

As a young believer, I've read alot of Spurgeon. No denying he was eloquent and encouraging in some respects. Unfortunately, eloquence in preaching never guaranteed being unerred.

Same thing with TULIP. Pretty flowers and ingenious acronyms never guaranteed one's accuracy with Gospel truth.

 

Nelson, TomVols, and Dick Lucas, when you see him...Well,some believe, and most do not, according to the will of God...and so it has ever been. It does not depend upon invitations or appeals, but upon the regenerating and resurrecting power of God.

There is a strait gate, which few find, and a wide gate, where the majority enter in. The critical factor is not who knows Christ, but those whom He knows. To many, He will say in that day, "Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity; I never knew (loved) you."

In the Name of Him who all we for whom He died love because He first loved us,

connieman (with my most appealing and inviting smile)

[ May 20, 2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

This fourth point would definately cause a contradiction in the Bible (as would the other 3, but the 4th is easiest to prove false).

Ezekiel 33:11 "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live."

Now, if God has pleasure in the repentance of the wicked rather than their destruction, then obviously God has given them the ability to repent, that ability being called free will, if you will. Thus, Peter can say in 2nd Peter 3:9 that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If God had pleasure in the destruction of the wicked, and if he predestined them to eternal hell, then both the apostle Peter and the prophet Ezekiel were liars, for they claim the opposite! Am I to believe Calvin the heretick over Ezekiel the prophet? GOD FORBID! Shall I beleive Spurgeon over Peter? GOD FORBID!

Now, Paul also says that God "desires all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4) Now, who shall I believe? Paul or Spurgeon? The Bible or Calvin? Let God be true but every man a liar.

 

solascriptura...before you decide, get the rest of the story. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, it is true, but they still die because they will not seek God. Only by the electing grace of God does any man come to God in Christ, but the wicked are not the objects of God's grace.

"God is angry with the wicked every day." Why? Because they refuse to repent." And they continue unrepentant to the end, because God has not chosen them to salvation. They are reprobate, rejected from God's mercy.

Romans 9 tells us this: "Therefore hath He mercy on some, and some He hardens." Or, has no mercy on some.

BTW, God is true, and everyman is a liar, including you and me, except as we speak only according to the scripture...the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

connieman

(Not "lucky", just blessed of God: "Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest, and causest to approach unto Thee." Psalm 65:4_)

[ May 21, 2002, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

If I understood the post correctly, here is my questions: If appeals are not required to be made,

(1) Why would Jesus make appeals, like "Come unto me" and Repent and believe"?

(2) Why would the apostle Paul state that unless they hear, they cannot believe (Rom. 10:14)?

 

I agree God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, however, if the verse - "The LORD hath made all things for Himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" - as posted by Connieman, is to be understood in the sense that God made the wicked in order to consign them to the day of evil, such an interpretation would make Scripture contradict itself.

Why would God make a wicked man in order to consign him to hell ("the day of evil") if He takes not pleasure in it or is not willing that any should perish?

If the verse Connieman posted is to be interpreted as God making the evil man in order to consign him to hell, the Bible remains in contradiction to itself and, therefore, the 4th point remains unresolved.

The problem, I believe, is not the Bible but the Reformed Calvinistic interpretation of the text.

 

I never said anything contrary to such. Neither has Dick Lucas in anything I've ever read of him. We simply proclaim the gospel and stand back and watch God do His gracious work of election.

 

By the way, all would benefit from reading Spurgeon's exposition of 1 Tim 2:3-4 in Spurgeon vs. Hyper-Calvinism by Ian Murray, published by Banner of Truth.

 

With all due respect, please note:

1. The contradiction inherent within the sentence. One cannot speak what is false and speak the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" at one and the same time.

2. The similarity with heretical claims. Cults, like the Watchtower Society, have made similiar claims regarding their interpretation of the Biblical text, leaving their teachings without any possibility of error.

 

Being blessed is reserved for believers. Being lucky is reserved for those particular individuals who have been chosen by the Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine of divine fatalism.

As my mother would sing:

"Que sera, sera
Whatever will be will be
The future's not our to see
Que sera, sera
Whatever will be will be"

 

This is the question that I think undermines your whole position. While you take pleasure in asserting that all men have equal opportunity and that God knows all thing (including who will believe) from eternity past, you have a God who creates men that he knows ahead of time will freely reject him and go to hell. So why does your God create people that he knows will go to hell? If he knows that they will not accept him, why does he not leave them uncreated?

This very conundrum that you are in points out why free will theism or open theism is the only real alternative to biblical soteriology.

 

I think the “conundrum” is in Larry's court since (I assume) he seems unable to provide an answer; and the fact that Larry is unable to provide an answer "undermines his whole position."

Let us not mistake what specifically is being asked. There is a big difference between asking why a wicked man is consigned by God to hell and why God created the wicked man for the express purpose of sending him to hell.

From my perspective, a Biblically rational answer is provided for the former; there is no Biblically rational answer for the latter.

 

Why do you say we should mistake what is being asked and then state something that was not asked? It appears you have mistaken it. You did not even make an attempt to answer it. My question is, Why would God create someone knowing that they were going to go to hell?

YOu have decried a God who does such but then you must admit that your God does exactly that. He creates people knowing that they will go to hell. Yet he does not desire anyone to go to hell ... so he creates people that will go against his desire. Does this not make God the author of people going to hell?

 

First, Larry did not answer my question. Second, his question is unrelated to the discussion started by Connieman.

Larry poses a different question from what I am asking. That is why I stated, "Let us not mistake what specifically is being asked."

Larry needs first to answer the original question I posed to the verse Connieman cited if the discussion is to go any further.

And just for the record, Larry's statement that I "take pleasure in asserting that...God knows all things (including who will believe) from eternity past," is not accurate. I am not yet sure what exactly I believe about divine foreknowledge, though, at this point I assume God knows all things but am open to change.

[ May 21, 2002, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

I am the one who asked you a question. I was not responding to a question from you in my post.

I am the one who is asking a question here.

I do not know what the original question precisely was to connieman. I am asking you a question (one that I have asked before) that you are not answering.

If you are open to the idea that God does not know all things then you are worse off than your posts give indication of. This is a clearly revealed truth in Scripture and is not open for discussion.

So the question still stands: Why would God create someone that he knew was going to reject him? Does that not make God "the author" of people going to hell?

 

A look at Larry’s post dated posted May 21, 2002 at 10:28 AM will show that he is mistaken.

Larry inserted my question to his post, which can only lead one to assume that he was going to answer it. Though he omitted the question mark, the sentence, from which he quoted me, begins with a “Why,” which indicates a question (at least as far as I know from English grammar. If this particular rule in English grammar has changed, please advise).

As such, my question still remains unanswered.

As stated before, unless Larry makes an attempt is made to answer it, there is no need for him to pose any further questions. With all dues respect, the rest of Larry's response remains irrelevant.

Just in passing, answering a question with a question is usually an evasive maneuver in order to extricate oneself from an embarrassing difficulty in the hopes of subtlety changing the subject in the hopes that the initial question will be forgotten.

 

Matt 1:21
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus; for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins."

You all know the rest of the Scriptures that clearly state that Christ died for "his people, his sheep, his church, many" They are in Matt, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Eph. just to name a few.
(OT also)

What we have forgotten is the Scripture that states God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And God will have compassion on whom He will have compassion. "So, then it is not of him that WILLETH nor of him that RUNNETH, but of GOD that sheweth mercy."

And we have also forgotten that while God may not take "pleasure" in people being in hell...They WILL bring Him glory!

W. A Criswell said it best in his sermon The Bible Kind of Salvation. (June 1983)

Our generation is suffering from "E Y Mullins disease"....the master of the middle of the road.
(Who also stated in his doctrinal thesis "Truth must be assimiliated, and not gotten from any authority be it the Pope, the Church or THE BIBLE!)

We must also remember that when we interprete ALL to mean "every person ever put on the face of the earth"...then we cause the Scripture to contradict itself with all the verses about the MANY regarding salvation and the blood of Christ. And every true Bible scholar knows that if your interpretation causes contradictions, then it is your interpretation that is wrong...not Scripture.

As long as the "decision" is in human hands....then it isn't GRACE...it is WORKS...and the last time I checked that wasn't scriptural.

 

BTW, NELSON...Tell "Mom" that there is a great difference between being in the hands of a wise and compassionate God of the Universe, and being a victim of dumb luck, or a blind, implacable, senseless "fate".

To All... For an answer to most of the above questions, ask God, the next time you see him, And you surely will, one way or another.

Man has said, "Why hast thou made me thus? But then, God has already said, "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Then, God goes on about potter and pots, clay and vessels, some to honor, and some to dishonor. I like to think of some as table gravy boats, perhaps, and others as chamber pots.

In the Name of HIM Who is the Judge of all the earth, and does whatever is Right and pleasing to Himself,

connieman

[ May 22, 2002, 03:34 AM: Message edited by: connieman ]