Is the Catholic church the harlot of Revelation?

Tyndale: You keep trying to equate the Book of Revelation with past events. This is not what the Book is. It is a book of what is to be not what was. It is obvious you don't have a clue about prophecy and eschatology or you would not keep posting what you post.

Babylon was used by God to judge Israel and Judah. THe deaths caused by Babylon was God sanctioned because of the sins of the two nations against God.

Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills. You need to read your Bible and history books and geography books. Rome is the city that sits on 7 hills.
Rome is the city of the Vatican.

I could not believe you would say that the Bible does not say the RCC is this. Well the RCC was not in existence then. It came three hundred years after the death of Christ. Not only that but this Whore will be riding the Beast. She will be in alliance with the Anti-Christ. This was the scarlet Beast with 7 heads and Ten Horns.
Jerusalem would never have blasphemies written on its forehead against God even in its worse days.
The angel told John that the woman is the great city which rules over kings of the Earth. What city has there ever been that had rule over much of the Earth but Rome. At one time she ruled all nations religiously. The pope had control. Jerusalem has never ruled all nations as the city of Rome has. It says the Scarlet beast and the others will turn on the woman and devour her.
Jerusalem will be still standing at this time.
When Jesus descends to Earth against he AntiChrist he will land on the Mount of Olives which is part of the Jerusalem area.

 

Actually, the view that Jerusalem is "Mystery Babylon" has much scriptural support, even internally to Revelation. The RCC view, although seemingly makes sense, has very little scriptural support. If we let scripture interpret scripture, Jerusalem becomes the stronger choice. If you want, we can discuss some of them.

Three thoughts here:

1. The seven head are the seven mounts. Who in Revelation has the seven heads: the woman or the beast she rides? The beast. Don't confuse the woman with the beast.

2. Jerusalem *also* sits on seven hills, and many Jewish scholars recognize this. The mount of Olives has three summits (Scopus, Nob, and the Mount of Offense (2 Kings 23:13)), the original Mount Zion in the south, the Ophel Mount, the hill where "Fort Antonia" was built, and the current Mount Zion in the southwest.

3. Rome is not the city of the Vatican. They are near each other, but they are separate cities. The Vatician is technically not even part of Italy.

Do you believe in the "imminence" (as pretribbers define it) of the rapture? If so, and if the RCC is "Mystery Babylon", the pretrib concept of imminence breaks for the rapture could not have happened before the RCC was on the scene.

[ September 21, 2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

Hrhema said:

Matthew 23: 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

When did the Lord come?... When he came in judgement and layed Jerusalem waste!... Just like Jesus predicted and it happened in 70 A.D. Jesus declared it would come to pass and Josephus penned it down for history... Brother Glen

 

Here is what Matthew Henry says in his commentary which was written around 1704, on Revelation 17:1-6




Here we have the mystery of this vision explained. The apostle wonders at the sight of this woman: the angel undertakes to open this vision to him, it being the key of the former visions; and he tells the apostle what was meant by the beast on which the woman sat; but it is so explained as still to need further explanation. 1. This beast was, and is not, and yet is; that is, it was a seat of idolatry and persecution; and is not, that is, not in the ancient form, which was pagan; and yet it is, it is truly the seat of idolatry and tyranny, though of another sort and form. It ascends out of the bottomless pit (idolatry and cruelty are the issue and product of hell), and it shall return thither and go into perdition. 2. This beast has seven heads, which have a double signification. (1.) Seven mountains —the seven hills on which Rome stands; and (2.) Seven kings —seven sorts of government. Rome was governed by kings, consuls, tribunes, decemviri, dictators, emperors who were pagan, and emperors who were Christian. Five of these were extinct when this prophecy was written; one was then in being, that is, the pagan emperor; and the other, that is, the Christian emperor, was yet to come, v. 10. This beast, the papacy, makes an eighth governor, and sets up idolatry again. 3. This beast had ten horns; which are said to be ten kings which have as yet received no kingdoms; as yet, that is, as some, shall not rise up till the Roman empire be broken in pieces; or, as others, shall not rise up till near the end of antichrist’s reign, and so shall reign but as it were one hour with her, but shall for that time be very unanimous and very zealous in that interest, and entirely devoted to it, divesting themselves of their prerogatives and revenues (things so dear to princes), out of an unaccountable fondness for the papacy.

 

Show me any other group that comes close to the definition. It is a harlot church so it once was a church. (In the beginning maybe, but then brught a lot of paganism and false doctrine into it) It has a strong influence over politics. (Holy Roman Empire and today) It is rich. (None richer) It has the blood of saints on its hands. (Inquisition) It gave birth to other churches that were once pure (Reformation) and then they bcame harlots and returned to her. (Ecumenicism)

We see the Catholic Institution in all of those descriptions. No other group that is or was a church has any of these characteristics. As to the seven hills, it is called the ROMAN Catholic Institution and has ruled Rome for centuries so it can still sit on the seven hills even if the modern HQ is a short distance away.

 

Let scripture interpret scripture.

 

I believe I will also stick with the words of Jesus... Like Brian T said Let scripture interpret scripture and scripture which is the written word of God couldn't be plainer to me... Brother Glen

[ September 23, 2002, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

When Jesus said that they would not see him again until they said Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord he is talking about the fact that Israel will not see his face again until they repent. This is in fulfillment of the prophecy in Zechariah which states that they will mourn for him whom they pierced.

Logistically there has been thousands upon thousands of people martyred by the Roman Catholic Church. The only righteous people slain by Kings and Religious leaders of Jerusalem were prophets and priests. They were only responsible for the death of one disciple, James the son of Zebedee.

Please explain to me why God will defend Jerusalem in the end time. If Jerusalem is the Great whore why would God defend her when Gog and Magog attacks Israel? Again you did not explain the part of the beast devouring the Whore though the Bible say Jerusalem will be standing at the end times.

I quote you what the Book of REvelation says and you come back with no explanation to explain this scripture. You quote some scriptures about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. This was not the first time Jerusalem was destroyed. Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. So which of the two is the beast?

The beast will be the Anti-Christ. The lawless one. Nebuchadnezzar's dream in Daniel and the Book of Daniel needs to be reviewed along with the Book of Revelation to understand end times.

Those who believe it is Jerusalem already believes the Book of REvelation has already been fulfilled. I think they are going to have a rude awakening coming to them.

All you have to do is look around you and you can see sign after sign being fulfilled.

 

Some people interpret Revelation and the words of Christ according to a Jew that was lost and hired by Rome to record their history. Yeah, that sounds trustworthy.

Out like the sense it makes to interpret the Bible according to lost people.

 

Here are most of the views in case anyone is interested... Actually I thought the views are divided like this... Futurist... Pre & Postmill... Preterist... Full & Partial... Then Amill... Followed by Historical and last of all Spiritual.

If I remember correct seven in all and off branches to many to count!... I am Primitive Baptist/Amill/Partial Preterist.

Hrhema I will not discuss my beliefs here and not go toe to toe with you on this question here. I am very well settled in the way I understand Revelation and this board is only for information. That is all any of us can post is what we believe... If others want to believe it or not that is for them to decide. I know of every school of thought on Eschatology having studied it for the last 35 years. What I believe is right for me alone and I only share the conclusion I have come to according to my understanding of scripture... Brother Glen

[ September 24, 2002, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

As a fellow Okie, I must say that I have to agree with you. Revelation is just what it says the "Revelation of Jesus Christ that will happen". Nothing fits the mark today better than the RCC. Remember, the anti-Christ and the false prophet "fool" the people. Therefore, we are not to hate the Catholics, but pray that they find out what is right and true. We should not hate them.

Did anybody see pictures of the pope during his visit to Israel? Sitting on his throne (with the upside down ccross on the back) like the king of the world? Who was he honoring? Jesus or himself? Look through the news sites and find the pictures and look closely---I think many of you will be stunned at the "kingly arrogance" of the popes visit to the Holy land. You would have thought Jesus had returned----if you didn''t know better.

 

Can the RCC be a harlot?... She can be one of the daughters as all false religions are. Is she the Mother?... No the scriptures prove that the Mother is Jerusalem... She is Mystery Babylon and all through out the Bible she is called a harlot. She is the first harlot... Thereby the Mother of all the harlots that will follow. Read the Old Testament and see who first played the harlot. Did she suddenly change her spots in the New Testament when Jesus came on the scene? Once a harlot always a harlot but this one is different as this one is the Mother. The RCC is not even that old and only a daughter! Now you prove by scripture that Jerusalem is not the Mother? The Mother is the one that crucified Jesus and no one else can claim that title!... Brother Glen

[ September 24, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Babylon in Revelation sits on many waters. Jerusalem doesn't even have a river. Babylon is a trading center, and her destruction mourned by sailors in their ships as the see the smoke. Jerusalem is on no trade routes, and is 60 km inland, no sailors can see it. Babylon is destroyed for ever. Jerusalem is today a thriving capital city. Rabinic Judaism is also doing well. God destroys Babylon, but in Zechariah, God returns to save Jerusalem.
I dont think that Babylon = Jerusalem

 

Australian Baptist Student said:

Revelation 17: 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. The writer John is writing in symbolism... and waters=people.

Aflred Edersheim from The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah... page 116 vol. 1... Speaking of the city of Jerusalem and her riches... In these streets and lanes everything might be purchased: the production from Palestine, or imported from foreign lands-nay, the rarest articles from the remotest parts. Exquisitely shaped, curiously designed and jewelled cups, rings and other workmanship of precious metals; glass, silks, fine linen, woolen stuffs, purple and costly hangings; essences, ointments and perfumes, as precious as gold; articles of food and drink from foreign lands-in short what India, Persia Arabia, Media, Egypt, Italy, Greece, and even the far off lands of the Gentiles yeilded, might be had at these bazaars. Ancient Jewish writing enable us to identify no fewer than 118 different articles of import from foreign lands, covering even more than modern luxury has devised.

God destroyed a people and a false religious system that crucified his only begotten Son. If you have never read of the destruction of Jerusalem do so and then you will understand the false assumption you made that the sailors at sea couldn't see the smoke. The conflaguration was so complete sailors saw it sixty miles away if that's where you put them. We are not talking about mans destuction we are talking about the judgement of God on those who murdered the Apostles and Prophets and last of all crucified his beloved Son.

Babylon=Jerusalem and their false religious systems were destroyed and fulfilled in the coming of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. His death, burial, and resurrection from the dead fulfilled that, that the Law and the Prophets were a type and shadow of. The Law and the Prophets were until John since then the kingdom of heaven is preached. The preachers on this board now are preaching the kingdom of heaven and they have been since John the Baptist.

Rabanic Judaism may be doing well but it has nothing like it had when Jesus came on the scene with its Temple Worship and all the rituals that went with it... The high preist and all the sacrifices that were instituted. Which God no longer required because with the sacrifice of his Son these ceased soon after and have not been practiced again... Brother Glen

[ September 26, 2002, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

The Book of Revelation was written in 96A.D.
Even if someone would believe this book was about present happenings at that time then it would not coincide with the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70 A.D.

The beginning of Revelations reads:

This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him concerning the EVENTS THAT WILL HAPPEN SOON.

When Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem the conflagaration was just as terrible as with Rome in 70 A.D. so which past event was the destruction of the whore? Matter of fact the book of REvelation states the Beast or the Anti-Christ will destroy the whore so I guess Titus was the Anti-Christ or the beast.

Rome in 70 A.D. did not fit the description of the beast that the whore was riding.

 

While many have made a compelling argument concerning the RCC being the harlot of the Revelation and the pope the antichrist, I have reservations (and I am a former Catholic) because of the following verses of Scripture:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

As corrupt as the Church of Rome was/is she has never denied the doctrine of the true humanity of Jesus Christ. That He is the Logos born of a woman.

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Again, the Church of Rome has never denied that Jesus is the Christ (in the orthodox definition) or the deity of Christ.

In fact, some of the written works of the RCC concerning these doctrine (The Person of Christ, the Incarnation, the true humanity/deity of Christ, the Hypostatic Union) are scripturally flawless.

HankD

[ September 26, 2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

The Great Harlot is not the Anti-Christ. Nor will she be anti-christ. She will prostitute the Christian religion. She will mingle it with cultism, humanism and that is exactly what the RCC has done.

The RCC has prostituted the truth by teaching error. They do not believe the Grace of God is sufficient. The cross of Calvary is enough to save anyone. They believe that people have to suffer for their salvation. They have to work also to earn their salvation. A lot of the old rituals smacked of ocultism. They venerate who they call Saints, create idols of them and the people literally pray to these idols. They make the human vessel God used to bear his son and call her the Queen of Heaven and give her the power to mediate when the Bible said there is one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus. Yet they say she is the mediatrix between man and the son of God. Not the Father. They also prostituted salvation by selling indulgences as they called them telling the payee that they were paying their loved ones out of a place they created called Purgatory.

The Anti-Christ and the prostitute will form an alliance at first because he will show himself religious. Then he will turn with fury and destroy her.

 

I think the SBC is the harlot of the revelation.

Well, not really, but I just wanted to see how ridiculous it sounds. (what's scary is that some baptists on the bopard will agree with that statement ) I don't think the harlot of the revelation is referring to any religious institutions. But I also am not versed enough to have an idea of what it may be.

Since it;s not difinitive enough, I don't think it's appropriate for us to say that for sure the harlot is this or that church. That's ust spreading gossip. If we want that kind of revelation gossip, we could just as easily pick up a Hal Lindsay novel.

[ September 26, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

I hope none of your brethren read this... your profile say you are SBC... Must be in one of them new translations in the future?... Brother Glen