Hyper-Calvinism Heresy

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
Hyper-Calvinism is heresy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hyper-Calvinism could, I suppose, conceivably become heretical, depending on the particular position that was being taught. I can't see that Hyper-Calvinism in the abstract necessarily is.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
The teaching of limited atonement, that Christ died only for the sins of the elect and not for the sins of the non-elect is heretical doctrine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The teaching that you've just described is not Hyper-Calvinism, it's simply part of historic five-point Calvinism.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. et. al.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This verse in the Calvinistic(biblical) model, simply refers to the fact that Christ didn't die just for the Jews, but for every KIND of person, some from every tribe, tongue, kindred and nation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
Hyper-Calvinists cannot stand in the pulpit and say that Jesus died for YOUR sins, because they don't believe it. They can only say maybe He died for your sins if you are one of the elect, if you're not one of the elect then you cannot be saved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's true, preachers(or anybody else) should NEVER say, "Jesus died for YOUR sins." We should rather say, (like Peter): "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Acts 3:19(KJV)

[ July 04, 2001: Message edited by: CorpseNoMore ]

 

Actually, only free-will Arminianism has ever been condemned as heresy by the church, and not biblical, reformed theology. You are adhering to the typical Arminian strawman argument that Calvinism = hyper calvinism.

If Christ died to atone for the sins of every human who ever lived or will live, why then are all not saved?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
This intellectualism which considers a philosophy to be superior to the clear teachings of the Bible is a danger to one and all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're so right:

John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 ¶ "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.
8 "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

 

I can't help but think that Dr. Bob's response is something of a straw man. Just because someone rejects the calvinistic understanding of "limited atonement" does not mean he is a universalist. I can understand and appreciate the non-calvinist, non-universalist position that, even though all sins of all men have been atoned by Christ on the cross, that atonement is not applied to any but those who have faith in Christ (the elect). The matter of where faith comes from is another discussion.

The actual argument, in my opinion, should not be the scope of the atonement, but the application of that atonement to the sinner.

Personally I believe that Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14; 1 John 2:2) and that God's will is that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4) and without an atonement sufficient for all, God could not say that.

With that said, we must also understand that everybody except the univeresalist limits the atonement in some way. I believe it is sufficient for all but efficient only for those who have faith in Christ as their Saviour. And again, the source of that faith is another discussion, but just a hint: all of God, none of me!

[ July 04, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]

 

What was said about the sins of all being paid for is true. When Christ died, he did so for all. The true question comes to this. Who do you say Christ is? Jesus asked this same question to his disciples in mt 16. We all the free will to do one of two things with this question. A person can accept the gift of eternal life, or reject.

 

Definite redemption, also called “particular redemption”, or “limited atonement” , is the historic Reformed doctrine about the intention of the triune God in the death of Jesus Christ. without questioning the infinite worth of Christ’s sacrifice or the genuineness of God’s sincere invitation to all who hear the gospel (Rev 22:17), the doctrine states that Christ in dying intended to accomplish what he did accomplish: to take away the sins of God’s elect, and to ensure that they would be brought to faith through regeneration and preserved through faith for glory. Christ did not intend to die in this efficacious way for everyone. The proof of that, as Scripture and experience unite to teach us, is that all are not saved.

In discussing the atonement, some say that Christ died for all, and that all without exception will be saved. this is an actual universalism. A second doctrine is that Christ died for all, but that his death has no saving effect without an added faith and repentance not foreseen in his death. In other words, he died for the general purpose of making salvation possible, but the salvation of particular individuals was not included in his death. This is hypothetical universalism. The third doctrine is that although Christ’s death was infinite in value, it was offered to save only some, those who were predestined to salvation. This is the limited or definite atonement.

Scripture does not teach that all will be saved, ruing out actual universalism. The other two views do not differ about how many will be saved, but about the purpose for which Christ died. Scripture addresses this question.

The NT teaches that God chose for salvation a great number of the fallen race of man and sent Christ into the world to save them (John 6:37-40; 10:27-29; 11:51,52; Rom 8:28-39; Eph 1:3-14; 1 Peter 1:20). Christ is said to have died for a particular people, with the clear implication that his death secured their salvation (John 10:15-18; 27-29; Rom 5:8-10; 8:32; Gal 2:20; 3:13; 14; 4:4,5; 1 John 4:9,10; Rev 1:4-6; 5:9,10). Before he died, Christ prayed for those the Father had given him and not for the world (John 17:9; 20). Jesus’ prayer lifted up those for whom he was going to die, and he promised them that he would not fail to save them. Such passages present the idea of a definite atonement. The OT, with its emphasis on the election of grace, provides strong support.

The free offer of the gospel, and the commandment to preach the good news everywhere, is not inconsistent with the teaching that Christ died for his elect people. All who come to Christ will find mercy (John 6:35; 47-51; Rom 1:16; 10:8-13). The gospel offers Christ, who knows his sheep. He died for them; he calls them by name and they hear him. this is the gospel that he commanded his disciples to preach in all the world, in order to save sinners.
(Adapted from the New Geneva Study Bible, R.C. Sproul Editor, page 1682.)

 

To think that Christ did not die for everyone is just silly. True not all are saved, but this is not because God has not made a way. The word whosoever is in the Word. This does not mean just a few people. (Jn 3:16, Rm 10:13) How a person could stand and preach that not everyone can be saved. This is just wrong. How can a person know that they are saved? If you are one of the lucky people who God has made to be his elect. That is what is being taught in this false doctrine. If you are one of the lucky.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
To think that Christ did not die for everyone is just silly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To think that he did is sentimental, but not biblical.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
True not all are saved, but this is not because God has not made a way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If all God did was to make a way, none would find that way.

Romans 3:10-12 (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
The word whosoever is in the Word. This does not mean just a few people.(Jn 3:16, Rm 10:13)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whosoever... refers to any kind of person, that the gospel is not for the Jew only.

Romans 1:16(KJV)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Galatians 3:28(KJV)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Revelation 5:9(KJV)
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
How a person could stand and preach that not everyone can be saved. This is just wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope people aren't preaching that just certain people can't be saved, for none of us can be saved. But God, who is rich in mercy, and who is seeking worshippers, WILL save a multitude, which no man can number, to the praise of the glory of His grace. That there are those who are haven't been chosen for this purpose is within God's perogative to do, after all He's God!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
How can a person know that they are saved?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like an outstanding question for a new thread... go for it!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
If you are one of the lucky people who God has made to be his elect. That is what is being taught in this false doctrine. If you are one of the lucky.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually... no, there is no "luck" involved, it's called grace. Your implication seems to be that some persons are getting jipped out of something they got coming to them. Well... in a sense that it true, those who are born again by the Spirit are jipped out of Hell, which they did truly deserve. Those who go to Hell, will get just what they've always wanted... a place to get away from God, but they'll not be satisfied with getting what they want and deserve, will they?

cordially,

CNM

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fwbbcflames:
We all [have] the free will to do one of two things with this question. A person can accept the gift of eternal life, or reject.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Free will is an unfortunate myth. We do not have free will but free agancy . We all have a bound will; slave to our nature. The unregenerate are unable to choose anything that is right. They are also spiritually dead; a dead man cannot choose God.

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. As Ephesians 2:8,9 says:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

If a man were able to "choose" Christ, he would be performing a work, and in essence be more powerful than God, for God would wish to save him and he could thwart God's will.

So even the faith with which we turn to God in is a gift from God.

For an excellent essay on God's divine grace in salvation, see John Piper's http://desiringgod.org/Online_Library/OnlineArticles/Subjects/DoctrinesGrace/tulip.htm

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:

Not all will be saved, but all are offered eternal life.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely correct. And the ones who respond are those who are enabled to respond by God, or else they too would be lost.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

 

I think that this discussion can be put into a one of verse.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to perentance.

 

I for one have never seen a verse in the Bible that says Jesus did not die for the sins of the world.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
I for one have never seen a verse in the Bible that says Jesus did not die for the sins of the world.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John 10:15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

 

At the beginning of this thread, Psalm 145:3 made a simple assertion:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Hyper-Calvinism is heresy. The teaching of limited atonement, that Christ died only for the sins of the elect and not for the sins of the non-elect is heretical doctrine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To back up his statement he gave seven scripture references:

I. Jn 2:2
Is 53:6
Mt. 11:28
II Pet 2:1
I Tim 2:4
I Tim 4:10

One attempt was made to refute his interpretation of I. Jn 2:2. Other than that, though other verses have been tossed into the mix and though arguments from theology have been advanced, no one has addressed the specific verses he cited to show that he is wrong. Come on Calvinist friends, show us point by point where he has incorrectly interpreted these verses.

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: swaimj ]

 

To quote Nelson Study Bible concerning 2 Peter 3:9. "God is not willing that any should perish clearly expresses desire for the salvation of ALL who will trust in Him. Salvation is equated here with repentance." To say that God is speaking only to the church, I don't think so. Why would Peter say all come to repentance,to the saved? That is the question. So I did not take a verse out of the Bible and make it say what I wanted it to say. The text speaks for itself. I have not made it say anything other than what it says.