Hyper-Calvinism Heresy

Chet,

I (as should every Christian) am apalled at such an attempt to impugn the character of the ALMIGHTY GOD! I must say it is on the borderline of blasphemy. You and your friend need to read again Romans 9, and beg the Spirit to give you eyes to see the terrible error of your thinking . That type of judging GOD according to your own carnal understanding is serious.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I (as should every Christian) am apalled at such an attempt to impugn the character of the ALMIGHTY GOD!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

spudgin, I would never want to do that. But this is the God the Calvinist portrays not the Scripture. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You and your friend
need to read again Romans 9<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know spudgin, I have read this chapter so many times, and to be honest have struggled with its meaning. Just being honest. Some portions of Scripture need to be studied in depth and meditated upon, and prayed about greatly before we can come to an easy conclusion. And we have to read the Scripture without a pre-assumed idea of what it is supposed to mean. I believe Romans 9 goes with Romans 10 and 11. I think it has a dispensational meaning, concerning Jewish people and the Gentile people not concerning salvation of individual persons.
Here Paul discussed God's sovereign choice because of a practical problem. The jews gloried in the fact that as Israelites they were God's Chosen People. But now in God's program of salvation in the church, Jewish involvement was decreasing while Gentile particaption was becoming dominant. Had God, then, abandoned the Jewish people? This is ultimately explained by God's sovereign choice, a principle which has always been in operation even within the chosen people of Israel and between Israel and other nations. Now this principle operates in God's purpose for Israel and the church and in His dealings with the Jews and the Gentiles within the church. For a great amplified commentary on Romans 9-11 is found in the whole book of Ephesians. God has chosen out of two one new man, from the Jews and the Gentiles to form a new creation, the Church.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and beg the Spirit to give you eyes to see the terrible error of your thinking<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I say thanks. I aways want to pray for myself the learn the truth of the Bible. As a human I am sure there are things I need to re-think or yet learn. As humans I think we all fall into that catagory. Keep praying.

God Bless,

With great love,

Chet

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet
Well in Acts 17:30, does Gods calling fall short, is it not powerful enough? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theologically speaking, there are two calls that go out. The general outward call to repentance goes out to all, but all will not obey because they have not been granted the necessary faith in order to effect such a repentance. So like Pharoh, they are repelled by the call to repentance.\

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet
Actually the subject is Salvation. And Paul explains to them that we did not deserve it. Its only because of Gods grace that we have it, and in Titus Paul tells us that it is also because of God’s mercy that we did not get what we do deserve. Paul also explains the avenue in which we received Gods grace, and that is through the channel of Faith. Without Faith no Grace.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I noted to CatholicConvert...

What faith do you have that doesn't come as a GIFT from God? (James 1:17-18, Ephesians 2:8-9) In Romans chapter four Paul explains the righteousness reckoned to one's account by faith in contradistinction to by works of the law which are wrought by human ingenuity.

If you accord the faith that: you, I, or anyone has to something innate in us, you are back to a wholly human work, thus confounding the whole point of Romans four. Moreover, Romans chapter 3 & 8 (as well as I Cor. 2:14 and elsewhere) make it abundantly clear that such a native faith is utterly foreign to man in his fallen state.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet
...with all the verses I supplied about ‘believing’ was to point out that we are
called to believe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes when man hears the gospel he has a duty to believe it, all historic Calvinists believe this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet
The Bible has hundreds of verse showing that we must believe. God would not give us a bible to read, with verses that tell us to believe to be saved, but not really give us the ability to believe. That would make God a liar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, the Bible was written to and for children of God, it's not for unbelievers. Secondly, God gave a "Ten Commandments" that He EXPECTS to be obeyed PERFECTLY. Do you accuse Him of dishonesty or ignorance regarding the fact that NONE(save Jesus Christ) have been ABLE to perfectly obey them thus far in human history.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet
It would be 'just' to just spill it out. God would say, I am going to chose who I want to have eternal life, the rest of you must continue on the path you will never be able to leave.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who are we mortals to suggest what would be more honest and just for God to do?

As to the rest of your post, I think a thread on the meaning and necessity of the new Birth would be more helpful for you at this point.

cordially,

CNM

 

I have read Rom 9 and I do not fully understand it, but someone once told me that you must use the Bible verses that are clear to try to clear up what is not clear. I have one question for you, Why would you bother teaching salvation if your going to heaven or hell anyway. Your God sounds like an unjust God who shows favortism to some people and not others. Where my God is a God of love and mercy.1 John 4:8.
One thing that I relized is that you believe that everyone is going to heaven because it says in [2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.](KJV) I would like to use the last part for my point. If it clearly says that it is God's will that none should perish so everyone would be saved. And by the way the word all means "PAS"(any, every, the whole, anyone, as many as, whosoever) and thats in the Greek.

 

First, let me just make a general statement, "You better believe God plays favorites." I don't see how anyone can read the Bible and come to any other conclusion. God chose Israel as His people and gave them, nearly exclusively, His Word for thousands of years. Was it because Israel was so good? Of course not. They whined, they complained, they went after other gods, and eventually their religious leaders crucified the Lord of glory. God chose Jacob and not Esau. God has always played favorites. Millions of people will die and go to hell having never heard the gospel, yet I have heard it my whole life. Does that mean God is unjust?

Your question, preacher boy, "Why would you bother teaching salvation if your going to heaven or hell anyway?" is one I have heard many times. Here's the answer: (1) I do not know who is elect of God and who isn't (2) I am commanded to preach the gospel to every nation (I do not logically conclude that since the Bible plainly teaches that God has given a certain group of people to His Son that I therefore have the right to disobey another clear statement in Scripture) (3) The very fact that God has elected some gives me great hope in my witnessing. I say with Paul "I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (II Timothy 2:10).

You ask where is the God of love and mercy. Read Romans 1. God has seen fit to reveal to every man His eternal power and His deity. He didn't have to do that. He could have left man with no revelation of Himself, but He didn't. That is merciful, yet every man will inevitably choose to reject God. Therefore, it is righteous of God to condemn every man. That is the clear teaching of Romans 1-3. So, out of a mass of people who were bound for hell, God chose to save only some, and not because they deserved it (all men deserve only hell) but "according to the good pleasure of His will." You may view that as unfair but it certainly is not unjust. God gave His only Son to assure that it would be just. There is your God of mercy and love.

 

preacher boy,

Well, bro.Mikayehu has already answered you adequately, but the questions that you posed prove that you do not understand Calvinism or the Scriptures. I do not say that as an ad hominem attack on you. Nevertheless, I do believe these issues are of the greatest importance. You have in fact believed a straw man characiture of what Reformed and Calvinistic Christians believe. That is typical amongst some brand of Baptists-- I know from experience. Anyway, if you are going to preach the Gospel(I assume you are a preacher) and the whole counsel of GOD's Word, you need to know that it is not a trivial matter. To mishandle GOD's Word is a dreadful matter which would place both you and your hearers in peril. Your understanding of the love of GOD is pure human sentiment, and is nothing more than the result of decades of tradition and even heretical teachings.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First, let me just make a general statement, "You better believe God plays favorites." I don't see how anyone can read the Bible and come to any other conclusion. God chose Israel as His people and gave them, nearly exclusively, His Word for thousands of years. Was it because Israel was so good? Of course not. They whined, they complained, they went after other gods, and eventually their religious leaders crucified the Lord of glory. God chose Jacob and not Esau. God has always played favorites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
God Chose Jacob who is Israel as a Nation. Not for indivual Salvation. Just becasue they were a Jew did not mean they were going to heaven. He chose that Nation to be a light to the world. He did not exclude any Gentile in the Old Testament from becoming a Child of God. If that was their choice. For an example read the book of Ruth. Israel was chosen to be a Theocratic Nation. Esau only represents the Gentile Nations.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Millions of people will die and go to hell having never heard the gospel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
(KJV)
Rom 1:20
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(KJV)

With love,

Chet

 

The 'choosing' of Romans 9 is indeed for salvation and not that of service. This can be the only valid interpretation because those vessels of honor (v.22) and mercy (v.23) that he chose were his worshippers, the Church.

Conversely, if you believe it was only a selection for service, the moniker "vessels of wrath" would be a strange title indeed. (Since it supposedly has nothing to do with eternal destiny!)

 

Chet said:

The gospel calls us to believe, not wait to be chosen, God waits for a responce from us.
He did die for all people. I get coupons all of the time for Pizza Hut. Pizza Hut is giving me free money off IF I buy their pizza. Now they are giving this coupon to everybody, but not everybody will accept their offer. I won't because I also get the same coupons from Dominoes, I do accept their offer their pizza is better. In fact I am waiting for the delivery guy now.

I have seen this analogy before, or one like it. The problem is that it presents a false picture of the relationship between a sinful man and a holy God; it trivializes the holiness of God and the sinfulness of sinful men.

If I receive coupons from Pizza Hut, Domino's, Pizza Pizza or any other chain, the reason I get them is that they are trying to drum up some business. But I don't owe the pizza places anything. I am not bound to use a coupon just because I get it in the mail. I have nothing to lose if I throw them out.

Furthermore, although a coupon provides a discount and it is beneficial for me to use it, it is not essential. I can still get pizza by paying the full price, which is still within my means.

But the relationship between me (the unrepentant sinner) and God is quite different. The Bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). That includes me. The Bible says that "There is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom. 3:10). That means me, too. The Bible says that "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). That is what I deserve, too.

I owe Pizza Hut nothing. But I owe God a very great debt that I cannot possibly pay, and no coupon will bring that debt down to a level where I can pay it off.

But Christ could. God sent Christ forth "to be a propitiation by His blood" (Rom. 3:25). "Propitiation" simply means satisfaction. It is not possible for me to be a propitiation myself; nothing I can do can possibly satisfy God's wrath. But Christ was able. His death on the cross was an actual, real substitutionary death for my sins: payment in full to God, on my behalf, that turned away God's wrath from me and provided an objective basis upon which God could declare me righteous.

A better analogy (though still not a perfect one) would be this: Suppose that through heavy and uncontrolled spending, I ran up a credit card debt of tens of thousands of dollars. I could not possibly pay that debt off. It would ruin me. Yet a millionaire, who owed me nothing and whom I could not care less about, hears of my plight. Out of nothing but pure and godly concern for my well-being, he goes to the bank, speaks to the manager, and authorizes the transfer of the full amount of my debt from his investments into my credit card account. I have done nothing; yet, because of this man's generosity, my creditors stop sending me legal threats. As far as they are concerned, I have no outstanding debts; they have no claim over me.

Christ's death is not a coupon, some sort of "Get Out of Hell Free" card, the use of which is purely optional. This analogy cheapens God's grace because:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>it minimizes the extent of the debt I owe to God, and my inability to make satisfaction on it
<LI>it trivializes the death Christ died by implying that salvation is simply easier with him, rather than impossible without him
<LI>it trivializes the exclusiveness of salvation through faith in Christ by implying that what we cannot get from one supplier, we can obtain from a competitor
<LI>it trivializes the importance of salvation by likening it to a luxury item we can do without
[/list]

 

Chet,

A couple of points on your last post. First, in regards to the nation of Israel. You disagreed with nothing I said. I said that God chose to have a special relationship with Israel. Scripture is very clear on this point. Dt. 4:20 says "But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day" (Israel was just as idolatrous as Egypt, yet God spared Israel and destroyed Egypt.) and even more explicitly, Amos 3:2 states, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth." (This is clear favoritism, and it certainly wasn't based on merit. Read Ezekiel 16 and see the repulsive description of Israel.) Rom. 3:1-3 then comes along and says "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?" (Here is a clear linking of the oracles of God, which other nations did not have, with belief and salvation.) Now, Scripture is also very clear that no man can be saved without the special revelation of God. Your quote of Rom. 1:20 is completely irrelevant. I quoted it in my post. This passage teaches that natural revelation reveals God's power and His deity, but no man is saved by believing those two things. The passage goes on to say that all men reject that natural revelation and so they have no excuse. Just like the law, natural salvation does not save; it only condemns. As far as the Titus passage, read the first 10 verses of the passage and tell me what "all" means in verse 11, keeping in mind that "all" in Scripture frequently refers to "all kinds of."

So, I repeat my original statement "Millions of people will die and go to hell having never heard the gospel." Can anyone deny that? Rom. 10:13-14 explicitly affirms it: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Accepting Christ is necessary for salvation. Accepting Christ is impossible without hearing of Him. Many will never hear of Christ's sacrifice, and unless they do, Rom. 1-3 is clear that they will die in their sins.

So, while I would not mind getting into individual election and predestination, I would rather not do it here. My response was to refute the idea that God doesn't play favorites. Of course He does. He chose to have a relationship with only the nation of Israel. He established His covenant with only them. He chose to strike down Paul on the road to Damascus, but didn't do that to, say, Herod. No one can read the Scriptures and believe that God does not play favorites.

Only a sinner saved by irresistable grace,

Jeremy

 

Maybe I should make myself a little clearer. What I meant by God does not show favortim is that he does not show favortism for no reason at all. Prov 15:29 says that God heareth the prayer of the rightous.Or Prov 13:13 says that he that feareth the cammandment shall be rewarded. It does not say however that God heareth the prayer of who for no reason he picks, or rewards the people he likes more then the next for no reason.
Now you ask yourself why God chose Israel over any other nation. It was because Abraham was willing to sacrafice his only son so God showed favortism to him by telling him that through his seed all nations will be blessed, Which in turn led to the story of Isaac and to my next point Jacob and Esau. The reason that Jacob was picked over Esau was because Isaac gave his blessing to Jacob.
Now that that is said lets return to the real suject. I have another question for all you men who believe in divine damnation How could you ever do such a vile thing as to have kids I mean if you really believe what you say. The chance of your child being picked to go to heaven is slim to none. Or if you have two or three kids the chance of all your kids to be picked is one in ten-million. Another question is do you ever sing songs with your kids like Jesus loves me or do you change the words to "Jesus loves me this I really, really, hope.

 

Preacher Boy,
I'm going to try to be very careful in how I respond to you, for I feel that you have little grasp of the full Biblical presentation of salvation. You say that God does not show favoritism for no reason at all. That, of course, is admitted by all. The objection I have is the idea that it is somehow in reward for good works in man. This is what Romans 9:11-16 expressly forbids "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." So, why does God choose some and not others? Ephesians 1:5-6 says "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL, TO THE PRAISE OF THE GLORY OF HIS GRACE, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Your questions really don't deserve to be answered for no question you may have affects truth. Do you know how many times in Romans, Paul forbids making some logical conclusion from a doctrine he has just presented? For example, in Romans 5:20 Paul states "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." OK, so the logical conclusion of that is let's go sin all we can so God can show more grace. That's logical but it's a heresy. So, in 6:1 Paul says,"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." Proper doctrine is like a knife edge. You don't have room to jump to any other conclusion than that which is stated in the Bible.

But, I will be suggestive in an answer to your questions. In regard to my children. The Bible is clear on the power of right upbringing and prayer. God has not only chosen whom He will save but also the means by which they will be saved. Again, I am obedient to ALL Scripture and believe if I am faithful in my role as a parent and earnestly pray for my children God will save them, but it is still God Who saves. All my efforts may be the means, but even my efforts are of God. And, by the way, God will choose if I have children too. Oh, and in regards to your song, I will sing it just like its written, "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

I feel you have just grasped one side of salvation. Man must choose God or he is eternally lost. But, the other side of salvation (and more important) is that God has given a people to His Son before the foundation of the world and sent His Son to redeem them to display His eternal power and wisdom to all of His creation. Even salvation is not primarily about us but about glorifying God. This is the clear presentation of Scripture.

 

Ransom,

Thanks for your reply. Please understand I had nor do I have any intention to cheapen Gods wonderful grace. My analogy was just that an analogy. It is a human analogy that can be broken down, no analogy is perfect. Please do not concentrate on my analogy, but rather the scripture that has yet to be examined.

Mikayehu,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(This is clear favoritism, and it
certainly wasn't based on merit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No one can read the Scriptures and believe that God does not play favorites.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God does not play favorites Look at this verse:
Acts 10:34
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
(KJV)

We do not disagree with the fact that God does choose. I agree with you there. But when God chooses things its not based on the fact that He has favorites. He does not favor any man over the other. This will again go back to dispensational theology and the reason God has worked differently in the seven dispensations. God chose Israel to gloriyfy His name, He chose Jacob a promise to Abraham. But His purpose was clear in that Israel was the salt of the earth. They were a witness. He worked with that Nation in a Theocratic way. Now God works through His Son (Hebrews 1:1-2). No man will be able to stand before our God and say, "you didn't give us a good chance!" God can say, " I gave seven different dispensations... In the age of conscience man failed. In the age of Law when I had a Theocratic Nation, man failed, under the age of the church man failed, in the kingdom when I bound Satan, man failed."

Like I said, Israel was not chosen so they could enter the Kingdom of God. This is clear in the Gospels, see John 3. They were chosen as a promise to Abraham for a fleshly linage, and a spiritual one as well. God never chose anyone for individual Salvation. He does not show favorites.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> This is what Romans 9:11-16 expressly forbids "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom
I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it
is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will say what you said, these whom God will have compassion is upon the Gentiles not upon an individual person. Your commentary on Titus 2:11 said that the word 'all' refers to all kinds of people, (I disagree) so I maintain that in this context of Romans 9, the kinds of people here are Jew and Gentile. This has nothing to do with God choosing Jane Doe for Salvation because He is a God of favoritism.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ephesians 1:5-6 says "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL, TO THE PRAISE OF THE GLORY OF HIS GRACE, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets also look at Romans
Rom 8:31-34
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
(KJV)

The main person in this portion of Scripture is non other than Jesus Christ. So who is the elect here? The elect is Jesus.
Go back and read this again with that thought. Jesus is the elect. Not us.

Now lets go to your text of Ephesians: Who is the us? The Gentiles. How did he predestine us? By Jesus Christ, He is the elected one. For what purpose? For the adoption. Why? He has chosen the Gentiles as well for God's Good Pleasure.

Here is another:
1 Pet 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(KJV)

Again the Elect here is Jesus whom Peter was an apostle of.

When I first discovered that there was a doctrine that based the theology upon the premise that God had chosen some to be saved and some to be lost, I just couldn't believe it. But the more I studied this doctrine and learned more about the belief, I knew I had to re-look at this because I wanted to make sure I was not basing my understanding of God according to my flesh. I really studied this belief. One thing I thought I would do is just take the Bible alone for a time and do nothing but read it with the idea that God is in the business of choosing some and not others. I was open-minded. I read the Bible and compared every portion of Scripture to that thought, EVEN Romans 9-11. Admittedly those were the most difficult to me. But my final conclusion was clear, that is not my God and it does propose so many theological problems, and it also is not systematic.
I was encouraged by someone in this forum to pray about it. Hmmm. Well I want to encourage all Calvinist, put down your history books and renew your mind, re-read the Scripture. I am not suggesting that you have not done so. But do it with an open mind.


With love,

Chet

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Preacher boy:
Maybe I should make myself a little clearer. What I meant by God does not show favortim is that he does not show favortism for no reason at all. Prov 15:29 says that God heareth the prayer of the rightous.Or Prov 13:13 says that he that feareth the cammandment shall be rewarded. It does not say however that God heareth the prayer of who for no reason he picks, or rewards the people he likes more then the next for no reason.
Now you ask yourself why God chose Israel over any other nation. It was because Abraham was willing to sacrafice his only son so God showed favortism to him by telling him that through his seed all nations will be blessed, Which in turn led to the story of Isaac and to my next point Jacob and Esau. The reason that Jacob was picked over Esau was because Isaac gave his blessing to Jacob.
Now that that is said lets return to the real suject. I have another question for all you men who believe in divine damnation How could you ever do such a vile thing as to have kids I mean if you really believe what you say. The chance of your child being picked to go to heaven is slim to none. Or if you have two or three kids the chance of all your kids to be picked is one in ten-million. Another question is do you ever sing songs with your kids like Jesus loves me or do you change the words to "Jesus loves me this I really, really, hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PreacherBoy,

I would ask that you would carefully read Romans 9:6-12. God does not choose anyone based upon anything but His sovereign pleasure. "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;". This should show you that God did not choose Israel because Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

I would also ask that you closely look at verse 11 in Romans 9, "for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls," Now the difficult passage is in the OT not here, what I mean by that is the question of why God would choose Jacob over Esau should be in our mind when we read the OT passage. Then Paul comes along and gives us a commentary on the whole story. It was so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not because Jacob was blessed by Isaac.

I would also like to ask you who is really in control of this universe? Or who is sovereign God or man?

Also when discussing these issues you really dont want to bring up "justice". If you want to deal with God being just, then we should all spend eternity in hell because we have all sinned against God.

Also, if Jesus died for everyone and everyone isnt saved, then Jesus failed. Is Jesus a failure? Is God so weak that He cant save anyone so He needs our help?

I too used to believe the way that you do but when i really began to look at scripture i began to see that God isnt a God who works according to "emotional" decisions, but according to His sovereign pleasure. Neither, is God controlled by me. I just honestly ask you too look closely at the scriptures. Consider Matthew 1:21 "for He (Jesus Christ) WILLSAVE HIS (JESUS CHRIST) PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS."

 

I would like to show that God did not damn any man from the moment of birth.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent KJV)
The last part clearly states God commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE to repent. Can anyone accuse God of commanding people to do that which he has made it impossible for them to do?
Also there is a calling on every mans heart to get saved. John 1:9 says "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" The word every man would mean everyone!
I would also like to say that I am sorry for the way I came across last time.

 

Chet,
I just have a few questions on your position, for you claim not to be Arminian and then seem to go on to agree with every point of tyical Arminianism.

First, do you believe the predestined people of Romans 8:28-30 are also Jesus Christ? "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified . . ." (NASB). God knew a certain people (not about them but knew them) before the foundation of the world.

Second, what do you do with John 6:37,44? "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out . . .. No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Thirdly, what about Acts 13:48? "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

I really hate to proof-text like this, but there is simply no way to do a Biblical Theoloby in one post. These passages seem to kick against your view that election is only corporate. From your posts it seems as if you're saying that you just can't accept a God Who chooses some people for salvation and (justly) leaves the rest of mankind in their sins. Therefore, you explain away passages that seem to reveal a God like that. This is just the impression I've gotten.

Finally, you have repeatedly emphasized that all men can seek after God (I don't think I'm misquoting you). I would just like a little clarification of this. What do you do with Romans 3:9-11 which explicitly says that none seek after God?

Thanks,
Jeremy

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mikayehu:
Chet,
I just have a few questions on your position, for you claim not to be Arminian and then seem to go on to agree with every point of tyical Arminianism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A wise friend recently said this to me:

"I knew a man who liked to tell those who rejected denominational or other
labels, 'Tell me what you believe and I'll tell you what you are.' It's a
good point - and these people who deny being Arminians show by what they
believe that they are in fact Arminians. One might as well deny being a
vegetarian when he insists that he only eats vegetables."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Preacher boy:
I would like to show that God did not damn any man from the moment of birth.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This statement sums up the errors in the arguments made against Calvinism on this thread. God does not pre-ordain anyone for hell. All of us would choose our own way and be condemned if God did not intervene and give us the saving faith needed to believe. God's choice to impart saving faith to some and not others is not equal to Him predestinating anyone to hell. We were all destined for hell and rightly so. God for His own reasons, which we are not worthy to judge, has willed the salvation of some.

I have a little knowledge of hyper-Calvinists. Some of their preachers do not prepare for sermons, they simply "flop" their Bibles open and preach from text that first meets their eyes. At a recent funeral, a pastor seeing no evidence of salvation in the life of the deceased nonetheless decreed that the family would see him again if he were elect. Finally, my grandfather was a Primative Baptist Elder. My grandmother was convinced that one of my uncles was bound for hell. She apparently started believing this when he was a baby and told it to him and others. He lived an ungodly lifestyle and died in a suspicious car wreck with several thousand dollars missing from his body.

These things do not agree with Calvinism and sound doctine of election.

Even though they choose to believe what many here reject, H-C follow they same erroneous thought process presuming to take what they believe to be the next logical assumption- that if God elects some for redemption, He must therefore predestinate some for condemnation. The problem in this rationale is that scripture supports the first point but not the second. Calvinism answers this dilemna in the only way that uniformly agrees with scripture.

If God intended salvation for all and Christ died for everyone and God is sovereign then why aren't all saved? Is God sovereign over salvation or is man? How do anti-Calvinists reconcile God's omnipotence and omniscience with a presumed inability to redeem all those for whom He has made a provision?

 

Mike Drewery, First thing I want to say to you is thanks for the great dialog. Iron sharpens iron. And I sense in your post a spirit of discussion and love, not contention and an "argue" spirit. Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mike Drewery posted: This should show you that God did not choose Israel because Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now you say that God Chose Israel (Jacob) because Abraham did something?
And the promises given to Abraham were given before Isaac was even born.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would also like to ask you who is really in control of this universe? Or who is sovereign God or man?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God is in control. No question. And in his sovereign will He chose to make salvation available for everyone, without His having to force it upon them. That never neglects the sovereignty of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, if Jesus died for everyone and everyone isn't saved, then Jesus failed. Is Jesus a failure? Is God so weak that He cant save anyone so He needs our help<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jesus died for the Sins of the World. All Sin was laid upon Him. He has perfect righteousness to offer to all of us on the condition of our faith. Remember faith pleases God also.
Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(KJV)

Now there is an interesting verse.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First, do you believe the predestined people of Romans 8:28-30 are also Jesus Christ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For whom He foreknew,= God foreknew everyone who would trust in Him. I do not believe that God is unable to know all things with now time barriers.
He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, = This is a fact, God had pre-destined that the ones who trust in Him would be conformed to the image of His Son.
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren; = the Firstborn is Jesus
and whom He predestined, = I believe that Jesus was also predestined, to pay for our sins ect...
these He also called; = John 6:44

"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Here is where we are probably going to disagree over one little word - draw -.
I will be the very first to admit I have absolutely no knowledge of Greek. But there are men who do, and I try to study what they teach in their dictionaries. Here is one of my favorites, Spiros Zodhiates:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); To draw towared without necessarily the notion of force as in suro4951. See Acts 8:3; 14:19; 17:6 Rev 12:4. Tp drag, although it may be just implied (Acts 16:19, of persons, to drag, force before magistrates;21:30, "out of the temple";James 2:6) Helkuo is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (John 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come). It is the drawing to a certain point as in John 21:6, 11 indication the drawing of the net while suro (John 21:8) is merely dragging. To draw with a sword (John 18:10). See Sept.: 2Sam 22:17 ; Ps 10:9 Jer 38:13<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So his conclusion on the meaning of the Greek word here is to draw without force.

Now I fully maintain that we are a wicked people. We are lost, blinded, and depraved. In fact we are dead spiritually. I fully believe that we will NOT be able to come to God without Him drawing us. No question. Here is one way I belive God does that:
John 12:32
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thirdly, what about Acts 13:48? "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The context shows that the Gentiles were glad because they too have been appointed to eternal life...
Acts 13:45-48
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(KJV)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From your posts it seems as if you're saying that you just can't accept a God Who chooses some people for salvation and (justly) leaves the rest of mankind in their sins. Therefore, you explain away passages that seem to reveal a God like that. This is just the impression I've gotten.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't accept a God who chooses some people for salvation and leaves the rest of mankind in their sins. And it is not just. This is just an analogy, that is human in origin (and its from my head) so please don't pick it apart. Its like if you have two sons, they both love to eat sweets. You could force them both to eat fruit, but instead its in your power to just pick one. You will let the other just grow fat and unhealthy. And justify it because he likes sweets more that fruit. But rather it would be better for that Father to provide fruit for both.

I am not explaining away verses, but trying to explain them. And just as I predicted not yet have I seen anyone try to give me a rebuttal on all the verse I posted. Its a two way street here.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Finally, you have repeatedly emphasized that all men can seek after God (I don't think I'm misquoting you). I would just like a little clarification of this. What do you do with Romans 3:9-11 which explicitly says that none seek after God?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let me get back to you on that... if you don't mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chris you wrote: A wise friend recently said this to me:"I knew a man who liked to tell those who rejected denominational or other labels, 'Tell me what you believe and I'll tell you what you are.' It's a good point - and these people who deny being Arminians show by what they believe that they are in fact Arminians. One might as well deny being a vegetarian when he insists that he only eats vegetables."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chris, I predicted that also.
Are you Baptist?

With love,

Chet