American Baptist Churches - USA

I have noticed a few people from time to time mention affiliating with the ABC-USA. Jamal's church might be dually aligned with the ABC, but they are a part of the National Baptist Convention.

Jim, I understand there are some in the ABC-USA that are supposed to be conservative evangelicals, but I would be surprised to find any KJV-Only type churches aligned with the ABC-USA. Of course, being down south, I have little experiential knowledge of the ABC.

 

Dr. Thomas Holland, author of "Crowned With Glory," a KJV book pastors an ABC-USA church in Michigan.

 

I wonder why he remains in such an organization??

 

Very, very, good question!

 

Some people prefer cooperation over orthodoxy.

Joshua

 

If we look at some denominations, going back to the modernism splits in 1925-27 (speaking of Canada), many evangelicals remained with the parent churches. The Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec is largely conservative to-day, with a few liberal churches scattered over the provinces. Had they all left, where would the convention be to-day? Devoid of all evangelicals?

Yes, I have heard all the rhetoric about "coming out from among them and be ye separate".

I think the Southern Baptists went through a similar experience, although I am not so familiar with this group.

I have been the victim of labelling over the years, so I tend not to label anyone, but bless the Lord for those who preach the Word.....and I mean the New Testament Word; the Lord Jesus Christ.

Cheers in Him,

Jim

 

Jim,

What you call "rhetoric" is a command of Almighty God. You can find it in II Corinthians chapter 6 where Paul commanded the Corinthians to dis-associate themselves from infidels.

If people who deny the virgin birth, diety, atonement, and resurrection of Christ as well as the creation, heaven, hell, the inspiration of the Scriptures, and, most lately, the exclusivity of heterosexual marriage, do no qualify as infidels, then the term has no meaning. For those who love Christ staying in fellowship with such is not an option and separating from such is a command.

As God said,

"Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing: and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Mark Osgatharp

 

People who deny the *diety* of Christ are not infidels, but people who deny the *deity* of Christ are certainly not true believers.

I don't think Christ was "diety" -- that is, always on diets.

 

BaptistBeliever,

"Not a true believer" means the same thing as "infidel." Rather than making fun of my spelling maybe you should be explaining to your dear Mr. McBeth what constitutes a "true believer" and an "infidel." Just get a load of this:

"[Fosdick's] head-on challenge of 1922, "Shall The Fundamentalists Win?" proved one of the more thoughtful critiques of the new right wing" (page 599 of McBeth's "Baptist Heritage").

Well let's just see what Fosdick said in that infamous infidel diatribe which Mr. McBeth considers a glowing example of Christian thoughtfulness:

"Here in the Christian churches are these two groups [those who belive in the virgin birth and those who don't] of people and the question which the Fundamentalists raise is this, Shall one of them throw the other out? Has intolerance any contribution to make to this situation? Will it persuade anybody of anything? Is not the Christian Church large enough to hold within her hospitable fellowship people who differ on points like this and agree to differ until the fuller truth be manifested? Well, if the Fundamentalists should succeed, then out of the Christian Church would go some of the best Christian life and consecration of his [sic] generation - multitudes of men and women, devout and reverent Christians, who need the Church and whom the Church needs" (Harry Emerson Fosdick in "Shall The Fundamentalists Win" - page 297-298 of "American Christianity" by Handy, Smith, and Loetscher).

In addition to denying the virgin birth, Mr. Fosdick includes denial of the second coming and denial of the inspiration of the Scriptures as theories which should be tolerated by the churches. How, I say, how does Mr. McBeth consider this blatant defence of infidelity and inclusivism a "thoughtful critique" of the "new right wing"?

Perhaps you could ask him for me, Baptist Believer.

Mark Osgatharp

[ October 04, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

Joshua,

I know how you infidels define "cooperation": "You build the buildings and send you kids so we can rape their souls; you pay our missionaries so we can export infidelity to heathen lands; you sit still and shut up while we instruct."

The only "Baptists" who want any part of that kind of "cooperation" are those, like Baalam, who are hoping to get their little piece of the pie someday. Well, they'll get their piece of the pie and God will make them eat it. Oh, how bitter it will be!

"For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? and what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?"

Mark Osgatharp

 

There’s not much difference except that the word infidel tends to have a hostile connotation that suggests that the unbeliever is vigorously opposed to the Christian faith. My expression, “not a true believer” broadens the scope somewhat. It includes those who are certainly “infidels” as I have defined them as well as those who “honestly” or passively may feel like they are a true believer in Christ when in fact they are not.

 

If you all want to discuss cooperation, orthodoxy, infidelity, McBeth, etc. in relation to the topic - American Baptist Churches USA - then have at it. Otherwise, we will get way off topic and outside this forum's purpose. If you want to just discuss cooperation, orthodoxy, infidelity, McBeth, etc., then start a topic on that in the "General Baptist Discussions" forum. Thanks. rlv, moderator

 

When believers "cooperate" with infidels they always come up on the short end of the deal. As Paul warned the Galatians, "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."

The American Baptist Churches, USA present the classic example of what happens when truth is sacrificed on the altar of "cooperation." There may be some ABC churches which teach some conservative doctrines; but there are no conservative ABC churches, because conservatives don't cooperate with the sort of apostates which are welcome and in charge in the ABC.

Mark Osgatharp