Is the anti-Christ coming?

"JBotwinick," thanks for correcting your earlier reply to Gina. Now it is much better to follow.

By the way, it is interesting the way you refer to Dr. Griffin's remarks as the Catholic-Baptist Church endorsement. Aren't you a bit harsh? You are referring to the Holy Spirit as your ultimate interpreter (which should be the case), so why are you critical of views differing from yours? Don't we all claim the Holy Spirit for our interpreter? And if we do, and yet come up with different interpretations, we cannot be right all of us - for the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.

Wouldn't it be better to state that "This is my personal view or belief, based upon my understanding of the Bible?"

[ May 02, 2001: Message edited by: bjh ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bjh:
"JBotwinick," thanks for correcting your earlier reply to Gina. Now it is much better to follow.

By the way, it is interesting the way you refer to Dr. Griffin's remarks as the Catholic-Baptist Church endorsement. Aren't you a bit harsh?

My reply:
No I don't. No more harsh than him comparing me to a liberal theologian because of this one belief of mine. He is, in essence, comparing me to the like of John Domminic Crossan and the likes of the Jesus Seminar, which couldn't be further from the truth.

You are referring to the Holy Spirit as your ultimate interpreter (which should be the case), so why are you critical of views differing from yours? Don't we all claim the Holy Spirit for our interpreter? And if we do, and yet come up with different interpretations, we cannot be right all of us - for the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.

Wouldn't it be better to state that "This is my personal view or belief, based upon my understanding of the Bible?"

[ May 02, 2001: Message edited by: bjh ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My reply:
I may be missing something, but that is what i did. I merely stated what I believe and why based upon my study of the Bible. Maybe you could help me out here. I thought I was answering some questions posed by Gina. Dr. Griffin is the one who started the name calling. If you don't want to go there, don't open the door...at least that is what my parents always taught me.

Joseph

 

Gina,

It stands to reason that there has always been an "anti-christ" ready to take the world stage.

Afterall, satan doesn't know the time either and he would have to be ready also.

This is just my own personal point of view.

 

Dr. Bob:

It is not only liberals who don't believe in the rapture (shame, shame Dr. Bob, liberals don't believe in anything!) but many conservative, Reformed Baptists as well. In fact most Reformed Baptists are amil, postmil or histroic premil, (as were most believers for 1830 years) and do not believe in a 2nd and 3rd coming of Christ!

Also, in the SBC of which I belong, there is nothing confessional about a "coming rapture, 7 year tribulation, return of Christ to rule for 1000 years, final rebellion, and a new heaven and new earth" though admittedly, most SBs do hold to those positions (largely because the SBC is not Reformed - yet).

So please Dr. Bob, take your own advice and "keep an open mind to the Spirit leading you in your understanding of His Word."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Gina - I know that JBot doesn't believe in it, and neither do most liberal Baptists, but I want you to understand that there are millions of Baptists who DO believe in it. By FAR the majority.

Baptist organizations and associations like the Southern Baptist, Conservative Baptist, General Assoc. of Regular Baptist, New Testament Assoc. of Baptists, and almost every independent fundamental Baptist church will hold to a coming rapture, 7 year tribulation, return of Christ to rule for 1000 years, final rebellion, and a new heaven and new earth.

So, keep an open mind to the Spirit leading you in your understanding of His Word.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

Chapter XXVI, Article IV.

IV. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father all power for the calling, institution, order, or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner;[7] neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.[8]

7. Col. 1:18; Matt. 28:18-20; Eph. 4:11-12
8. II Thess. 2:2-9

 

Gina, I believe the reason there are all these opinions is because there are so many translations out there that are not the true word of GOD . Compare the versus at this site to see what I mean . http://www.biblebelievers.com/Floyd_Jones/Jones_Ripped_index.html

If people are reading these translations they will be confused on what the truth is .


" THE LORD COMETH "

 

Hey everyone,

Did I mention That two really good sources for studying the Preterist point of view are
www.preteristarchive.com

and "Revelation: Four Views" by Steven Gregg

Joseph

 

How can the various views of eschatology be due to different translations of the Bible when these views PREDATED just about all of the different translations except for the KJV?

 

Hal:

They predated the KJV as well

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hal Parker:
How can the various views of eschatology be due to different translations of the Bible when these views PREDATED just about all of the different translations except for the KJV?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

I think this is one of the dangerous aspects of some theologians in the Pretrib camp (but certaintly not all such as John MacArthur) to focus on the coming of the Anti Christ and to make Revelation into a Horror story (LEFT BEHIND, OMEGA CODE are examples). The Bible tells us to be looking for the return of Jesus Christ not Anti Christ.

 

Gina:

Fortunately, we are never in the position of needing "more time". God's will will not be thwarted, as he is working all things
"according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory." Eph 1:9b-12.

God's timing is always perfect: "While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." Rom 5:6

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
And look at how many unsaved people there are. We need more TIME!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Back to the original post-inquiry;
Is the antichrist coming?

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Two things: 1) The word [spirit] in brackets is not in the koine text and 2) Isn't John the Apostle saying though they (the readers) had heard that antichrist was coming, he was now already come and in the world at the writing of this scripture?

"and even now already it is in the world".

 

Hmmm...I remember a little paperback (written in the 70's) by Salem Kirban that said Henry Kissinger WAS the antichrist. Hope the 'left behind' hasn't left dr. Kissinger 'behind' in their cosmic tale...

 

My reply:
I am afraid that modern day Christians have a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant when he talked about last days. When Jesus talked about his second coming, I think he was talking about events during the Roman Empire. I don't believe he was talking about a bodily return, but a time of judgment and wrath. This is pretty much known as the preterist point of view. If you would like to learn more about this view, I would recomend the following sources of information:

I'm having a "book" pubished, sometime "early next year", you need to read, It's named "Days of God".

It's very "plain and simple" to understand and the "Graphs" gives a Visual explanation of what's being said.

I think you'll be surprised to learn exactly what Ec 1:9 really means.

Ec 1:9 The thing that hath been,(before) it is that which shall be;(again) and that which is done (before) is that which shall be done: (again)

It should be "on the market" sometime around Feb, March, 2002.

Dorrence publishing Company is the publisher.

 

No disrespect intended, but I believe you are the one with the misunderstanding.

In order for Revelation to be a prediction of the future (Rev. 1:1,3,11,19;22:6-10,16,18-20), and in order for it to be fulfilled by August A.D. 70, then the book had to have been written by A.D. 67. for the preterist interpretation to be even a remote possibility.

The Apostle John was imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos during the reign of Domitian (A.D. 81-96). During his imprisonment, he was given the message by Jesus Christ. This message is what we now know as the book of Revelation. So, whether it was written around A.D. 81 or A.D. 96 (most scholars agree it was written A.D. 95), it was written well after the A.D. 70.

It also must be remembered that the book of Revelation is a vision John received about future events. John is clearly transported in some way to a future time in order to view the events as they will unfold. Why else would the word "saw" be used 49 times in 46 different verses in Revelation? John witnesses future events. A.D. 70 is obviously past events.

 

Another good book(s) are "Shattering the Left Behind Delusion" and "Beyond the End Times...The Rest of the Greatest Story Ever Told". Both are written by John Noe.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I to have studied Preterism but I no longer hold to their view. The authors I've read:
The Works Of Josephus
The Apocalyspe... Moses Stuart
The Parousia... J. Stuart Russell
Before Jerusalem Fell... Dr. Kenneth Gentry
The Cross and The Parousia... Max King
Seal Up Vision & Prophecy... Don Preston
Babylon The Great City Of Revelation...
Joseph Balyeat The Avenging Of The Apostles And Prophets...
Arthur Ogden
The Book Of Revelation... Foy Wallace
Beyond The End times... John Noe
Shattering The Left Behind Delusion... John Noe
Overcoming Sproul's Resurrection Obstacles... Daniel Harden
Questions About The Afterlife... Ed Stevens
From Grave To Glory... Murray

I also studied with Ken Davies who host Beyond The End Times radio program in California. Went to a seminar in Oceanside, CA. and met both Ed Stevens and John Noe. I've corresponded with Ed for 10 years.

Does your church let you preach on your Preterist views and are you a Full or Partial Preterist? I never thought I would run into a Preterist on this site because of the creeds... Looking forward to talking with you in the future... Brother Glen

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]