Languages (Not about prentocastals)

The fall of the tower of Babel seems to be one of the least popular debates in Christain circles. How come there isn't so much talk about God separating the languages of humanity? How did it happen? Was it instantly? Is there any archaeolgical or scientefic proof to the language division at Babel?

For a long time I was pretty convinced that the language separation was the result of the catastrophic volcanic explosions and earthquakes at the time which drove people away from Babel and destroyed the tower. Languages do 'morph' pretty fast -- ask any teenager!

But some reading this past year introduced me to some new research in work on the brain -- severe electric or electromagnetic shocks can severely affect the language center of the brain making the previous understanding of language faulty! Some words may remain, and basic syntax, but the vocabulary must be worked on all over again.

We read in Genesis that the Lord said "Let us go down..." If you skip to Psalm 18, you will see just what happens when the Lord comes down! Severe thunder, lightning, volcanism, etc.

IF the area around Babel was the focus of this type of electrical activity, especially from above, as in the sort of thunderbolts which can be associated with both volcanism and meterorite hits, then it is VERY possible that the languages were changed literally overnight as well as those who were left alive dispersing quite rapidly away from the area of devastation.

Is there evidence about the language division at that place and time? Absolutely. Linguists around the world keep tracing languages back to that area and a common original language. They may or may not agree with the timing, but the fact that all languages appear to have originated in the Middle East seems to be a majority opinion.

In November 2003 the magazine Nature reported the work of Russell Gray and Quentin Atkinson, of the University of Auckland in New Zealand under the heading "Language tree rooted in Turkey." They attributed the language to farmers and such, but the fact that they zeroed in on Turkey and that that is where the Ark landed makes for some interesting correlations.

I've never thought much about 'debating' that ole' tower and languages, accepting it as fact, but I sure have wondered how it all happened in terms of time and the number of languages. I've also wondered about one idea that the races were created with the languages. We'll understand it better, by and by .... well .... nah, I don't think we'll even ask about it once we're home! Too many picnics to attend!

Um....where would that magazene be? Oh and would there have been an unified written language that historians could trace before the fall of Babel?

Originally posted by UnchartedSpirit:
Um....where would that magazene be? Oh and would there have been an unified written language that historians could trace before the fall of Babel?

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Methinks it's the King's English!

QUOTE]Methinks it's the King's English!

[/QB][/QUOTE]

Wrong....
It's the Greek

Originally posted by Helen:
For a long time I was pretty convinced that the language separation was the result of the catastrophic volcanic explosions and earthquakes at the time which drove people away from Babel and destroyed the tower. Languages do 'morph' pretty fast -- ask any teenager!

But some reading this past year introduced me to some new research in work on the brain -- severe electric or electromagnetic shocks can severely affect the language center of the brain making the previous understanding of language faulty! Some words may remain, and basic syntax, but the vocabulary must be worked on all over again.

We read in Genesis that the Lord said "Let us go down..." If you skip to Psalm 18, you will see just what happens when the Lord comes down! Severe thunder, lightning, volcanism, etc.

IF the area around Babel was the focus of this type of electrical activity, especially from above, as in the sort of thunderbolts which can be associated with both volcanism and meterorite hits, then it is VERY possible that the languages were changed literally overnight as well as those who were left alive dispersing quite rapidly away from the area of devastation.

Click to expand...

This is a fascinating theory. God zapped all their brains to have different languages! I like it!

Originally posted by UnchartedSpirit:
The fall of the tower of Babel seems to be one of the least popular debates in Christain circles. How come there isn't so much talk about God separating the languages of humanity? How did it happen? Was it instantly? Is there any archaeolgical or scientefic proof to the language division at Babel?

Click to expand...

Actually, the linguistic evidence is that at Babel God originated many languages, each unique and different, with no cognate (similar pronunciation, similar meaning) words and with very different grammars.

Languages are divided into various families, the largest of which is called the Indo-European family. Almost all European languages are included in this, as well as Sanscrit (from India) and a few others. Each of the languages in this family has many cognate words, though the 1000's of years since Babel has produced a wide divergence in the grammars. For example, English has no gender in it's vocabulary, but many Indo-European languages (Greek for example) can have masculine, feminine and neuter words.

You might think that Asian languages are all from the same family, but not so. Chinese and Japanese are worlds apart in their grammar, and virtually the only cognate words are those Japan has borrowed from China with the "kanji" (Chinese characters) and those modern technological words that China has borrowed.

The only language similar to Japanese is Korean, which has several hundred cognate words but a somewhat different grammar. So probably at Babel God invented a proto-Japanese/Korean, after which those citizens of Babel who found they spoke it set off together for the East, and ended up at Korea, after which some got on boats for Japan.

And so it went with the other Babel language groups, I believe. (The original language which produced a language family is called a protolanguage.) A group headed off for China, where their proto-Chinese developed into many dialects, another group stayed in the Middle East with their Semetic proto-language, etc.

I hope this answers your question. I've been meaning to get to this for days! For more information on linguistic families, check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_families_and_languages

Oh and would there have been an unified written language that historians could trace before the fall of Babel?

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The King's English would be a close answer, but actually it is the Queen's English.

You know, the language we'll all speak in Heaven... The language Adam and Eve spake...

Now Ulsterman might come along and mention something about the Ulster dialect but he is biased...

There is a similarity in all languages, even remote, "primitive" ones, in certain features - such as the way the tenses are formed (present, past, future, etc.)

Oh and would there have been an unified written language that historians could trace before the fall of Babel?

All of the jokes aside, it was probably a form of paleo Hebrew.

Howdy, Ya'll,

Ya'll just don't get it. The language of Heaven is "redneck," aka Southern American. If you don't believe this is so, check out the following verses from the King Jim where Paul said "you all." Now, I know that the KJ translators messed up the spelling, like yankees and brits will do, but Paul always used the proper plural, ya'll,...ya'll.

Southern shows up in so many languages, but the meddlin' yankees have conspired with generations of bad guys to hide that fact. For instance, the original name for Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves was "Ally Bubba and the 40 Moonshiners."


Hey, if ya'll don't believe it, check out the following verses from the King Jim.

Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

Rom 15:33 "Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen."

Rom 16:24 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

1 Cor 16:24 "My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen."

2 Cor 2:3 "And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all."

2 Cor 2:5 "But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all."

2 Cor 7:13 "Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all."

2 Cor 7:15 "And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him."

2 Cor 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."

Eph 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Eph 6:21 "But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:"

Phil 1:4 "Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,"

Phil 1:7-8 "Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ."

Phil 1:25 "And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;"

Phil 2:17 "Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all."

Phil 2:26 "For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick."

Phil 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

Col 2:13 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

1 Th 1:2 "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;"

2 Th 1:3 "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;"

2 Th 3:16 "Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all."

2 Th 3:18 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

Titus 3:15 "All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen."

Heb 13:25 "Grace be with you all. Amen."

Heyyyy, I thought it was y'all!

Hey, Helen, them paleo fellers was just good old boys, and they spoke paleo-redneck. Heck, that's like them anthropologists and palentologists that try to establish a separate race called Neanderthals. If they want to see some real live Neanderthals, my next family reunion would be a good place to start. And as far as cave men, my daddy and most of his kin worked in the coal mines.

Originally posted by Helen:
Heyyyy, I thought it was y'all!

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It is ya'll, the King Jim translators, bein' light in their loafers Brits messed that one up. Ya'll is the proper plural for you. You All is something orange that you rent and pull behind a pickup truck when you are movin' to a new trailer.

Originally posted by Helen:
Heyyyy, I thought it was y'all!

Click to expand...

Corrected verses:
Rom 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for ya’ll, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."

Rom 15:33 "Now the God of peace be with ya’ll. Amen."

Rom 16:24 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with ya’ll. Amen."

1 Cor 16:24 "My love be with ya’ll in Christ Jesus. Amen."

2 Cor 2:3 "And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in ya’ll, that my joy is the joy of ya’ll."

2 Cor 2:5 "But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge ya’ll."

2 Cor 7:13 "Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by ya’ll."

2 Cor 7:15 "And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of ya’ll, how with fear and trembling ye received him."

2 Cor 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with ya’ll. Amen."

Eph 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in ya’ll."

Phil 1:4 "Always in every prayer of mine for ya’ll making request with joy,"

Phil 1:7-8 "Even as it is meet for me to think this of ya’ll, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after ya’ll in the bowels of Jesus Christ."

Phil 1:25 "And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with ya’ll for your furtherance and joy of faith;"

Phil 2:17 "Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with ya’ll."

Phil 2:26 "For he longed after ya’ll, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick."

Phil 4:23 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with ya’ll. Amen."

Col 4:9 "With Onesimus, a faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you. They shall make known unto ya’ll things which are done here."

1 Th 1:2 "We give thanks to God always for ya’ll, making mention of you in our prayers;"

2 Th 1:3 "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of ya’ll toward each other aboundeth;"

2 Th 3:16 "Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with ya’ll."

2 Th 3:18 "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with ya’ll. Amen."

Titus 3:15 "All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with ya’ll. Amen."

Heb 13:25 "Grace be with ya’ll. Amen."

One more question: what is a prentocastal? Is that kind of like a holy roller?

Wow, such linguistic genius on this thread!

Major B, before we got married I gave my wife to be a pamphlet called, How to Talk Southern. It was a useless effort, though. She cain't even say "dawg" right to this very day!

Originally posted by baptistteacher:
There is a similarity in all languages, even remote, "primitive" ones, in certain features - such as the way the tenses are formed (present, past, future, etc.)

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Sorry, baptistteacher, I'll have to disagree here. The formation and even the kind of tenses can be very different for each language.

Japanese, for example, doesn't even have a future tense. When a Japanese wants to say something future, he'll either use a subjunctive ("might"), or when he wants to be definite he'll use a present tense. Also, imagine the Japanese true adjective (there is also a Chinese adjective), which can become a past tense verb with just an ending added!

Originally posted by John of Japan:
Wow, such linguistic genius on this thread!

Major B, before we got married I gave my wife to be a pamphlet called, How to Talk Southern. It was a useless effort, though. She cain't even say "dawg" right to this very day!

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That's why I married a dipped and dyed southern belle who was taught [at 5 years old] to pan fry chicken while standing on a wooden soapbox in her granny's kitchen.