Liberal, left-leaning "Baptists?"

It depends what "work it out" means. If it means being accountable to church leaders, working together in counseling and having a submissive, repentive heart, then yes. If it means working it out by oneself, not yielding to ledership authority nor askign for or accepting counsel and help, and remaining indignent in one's sin, then no, such is cause for corrective discipline until one is restored.

1 Cor. 5:1-2 (ESV)
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. [2] And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

1 Cor. 5:4-5 (ESV)
When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, [5] you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1 Cor. 5:11-13 (ESV)
But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? [13] God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

[ May 13, 2002, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Hey Chris,
Just for the record, *Post It* asked the question you quoted from my post.

Whatever the case, I agree with what your post implies; essentially, it itemizes my ideas also.

In HIM,
Scott

[ May 13, 2002, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Scott:
I knew that, I just copied wrong!

[ May 13, 2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Chris,
Also, I repaired the typo's........Not before you copied me again tho.....oh well! Do me a favor, repair thy brothers fault!

Scott

 

What about gossiping Christian men? You know, the ones who do it under the guise of prayer requests....

I just had to put my 2 cents in about this one.

Post-it, one day the churches will be full again, never fear. The Church of the False Prophet will probably be filled to capacity. And what will the message of the False Prophet be?

Homosexuality is okay with God or Allah or whomever the Greater Power is, because homosexuality is a way of expressing human love. People can't help the way they were born.

Abortion is not murder of a human life, because human life doesn't occur until birth.

Nothing is absolutely wrong. It all depends on the situation you are in. (situation ethics)

Sin is only sin if you "feel" it is sin. It is wrong to judge and expect another person to live up to some code or standard created by someone else.

The Bible is outdated and bespeaks of genders. Let's have a unisex, non-gender version of the Bible.

Oh, and don't forget your "mark." The true and faithful followers will willingly get their personalized mark to show they support the world-wide religion reaching all corners of the earth with a new Gospel, user friendly, that does not judge and does not condemn. You will have increased ability to buy and sell. The early subscribers will get bonus points to spend on anything they choose!

There are probably a few things I overlooked, but I wonder...

Hmmmm....is the Church of the False Prophet already on the horizon?

 

Eaglelives911,
I have been following this thread. I do not see where "Post it" has implied that which you condemn. Just for the record, I agree with you *fully* (praise God, we agree this time!). I do not know that "post it" would not also agree with you? The premise he has posed is valid. Shall we not take the same rod of discipline to the liar, to the gossip, to the coveter and if they repent, shall we not restore them to fellowship?

In HIM,
Scott

[ May 13, 2002, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Chris I want to add that I would prefer to distance myself from Post it's quote, I do say that all sinners are welcome IF they are there for healing and restoration, it has been my experience that they are normally trying to correct our views instead of changing.
Mike

 

Ok, I think we are all pretty much in agreement on how to handle these types of sin theoretically. In other words, this is what the Bible is clearly telling us to do. My next question is how do we implement it. I see a big, big problem at this point.

How do we tell people that they are sinning when they don't feel or think they are. I have told people that you have been gossiping and that is a sin. They come back and say that what they were doing is not gossiping, (therefore not sinning). I have pointed out what gossip is and they still claim they are not. In fact, I can't find anybody admitting that they gossip. They start to claim that it is "conversation", not gossip. No matter what I say, they don't get it. In the same light, I can see the same thing happening when we point out other sins, gluttony, smoking, drinking, arrogance, etc., but no one that does these things see it as a sin in most case.

In other cases where the party admits they are bound in sin for example the alcoholic, they will say they are just too weak by themselves to stop or they are waiting on the Lord to help them as they can't do it themselves. Or their body's do what their minds don't want to do. Or they stop for a short time then start again.

Do these people have a valid reason to continue in sin or should they be kicked out of church? The other question that must be answered is are these people saved or not at this point in their failure at these problems?

 

Stan, that works great when the one 17 year old pops up pregnent. But I'm talking about sin that 40-60% of the church is guilty of. If we follow that advice, we wouldn't have a church left. This is what I'm talking about between what we know from the Bible and how that translates to reality.

We can't possible kick them out and we can't tell them they are not really saved. Can we?

 

In a sense I am defending Joshua because I see him as my brother in Christ..no matter what life style he holds to fact is he's still kin to me thru the blood of Jesus and honestly I'm thrilled that he is. My basic point is simply that I am tired of hearing so many say that homosexuals will not be in heaven. I realize that is not exactly the point here in this thread but I needed to make my stand clear. Btw...I'm sure Joshua would disagree with some of my stands in life yet love me as his sister in the Lord....just pointing that out.

Oh yeah...preaching against alcolhol is not biblical but personal conviction...but once again another thread

karen

 

Post-it writes:
Stan, that works great when the one 17 year old pops up pregnent. But I'm talking about sin that 40-60% of the church is guilty of. If we follow that advice, we wouldn't have a church left. This is what I'm talking about between what we know from the Bible and how that translates to reality.

We can't possible kick them out and we can't tell them they are not really saved. Can we?

Scott replies:
It is our job as church leaders to implement the scriptures that have been given us. These scriptures are life; I believe every jot and tittle. If Christ says that lying is a sin and one who practices such will not enter into Heaven, we believe Him! If Matthew 18 shows us how to deal with sinning brothers or sisters, we respond accordingly; we must! All exposed sin must be dealt with by the eldership as well as the individual. What are the consequences if one of the two parties refuses to deal scripturally with the issue? The church ceases to be a church. What is the scriptural outcome of unrepentance? The person or persons must leave. This mandate grieves many. It is not easy; many hearts are broken. The recourse: The family of God must pray, yet not have any communication with that excommunicated individual. If and when that person repents, we will restore them in love to the fellowship.
The idea of being a biblical church is implementing and actuating the scriptures in our lives. Without them, we are a false church. Sin must be exposed and dealt with. It is what makes us what we are!

Post-it, your question about losing 40% or so of unrepentant sinners to our membership due to upholding what the scriptures command us to do in regards to practicing sin(s) pans out as this.
These unrepentant sinners are truly not part of the fellowship anyway. If they were, they would want the sin that *hinders them* out of their lives. The embracing of that sin which the scriptures outrightly condemn, is to be challenged by the word.

Most everyone on this board would agree, better to have 5 members that love the Lord and His word, than 100 that have broken the 2nd commandment and made God into "a god" of their own imagination.

[ May 14, 2002, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

Post-it,
Again, I think you are completely correct in saying that gossip is sin & should be dealt with fully in the biblical pattern. However, if a church fails utterly to deal with gossip--and there is no doubt that many churches neglect sinful matters with which they should deal--I still can't go along with ignoring homosexuality. I think you are making a valid rhetorical point in saying that if we treated gossip like we treat homosexuality we would have smaller churches, but I think, as a solution to the problem, your advice is unwise.

 

1 Corinthians 5:1 (KJV)
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
1 Corinthians 5:2 (KJV)
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1 Corinthians 5:3 (KJV)
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1 Corinthians 5:4 (KJV)
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV)
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV)
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

What is it about the above you don't understand?

Smaller churches? God whittled away at Gideon's army until he had 300 men who ere trustworthy and faithful enough to follow oreders.

Problem with most churches today is they have to many disobdient, unfaithful members more interested in doing their own thing then srving Christ!!!!
Ernie

 

Nice answer Scott, but if that were true, why don't we have churches with 2 or 3 members instead of the numbers we do?

Next Sunday, If ministers were to ask their congregation "Who is committing sin that they can't seem to get past, it just keeps popping up again no matter how hard you pray about it, or who is committing little sins that you don't really think is very serious anyway?"

If the members don't lie(which they will), they all would raise their hands. At this point, they should have already dealt with it and gotten past it except those few who just became members. So from your view all the rest should have already been kicked out of Church. The leaders just had not done their jobs earlier. But even if we allow them 6 months to a year to get over it. I'm afraid it would just be something else that has taken it's place or they not have really defeated the sin and now just hide it.

Original sin and the problems it brings can't be defeated in our present day flesh. Even Paul says that. And yes, he says other conflicting things in that we should disconnect from them at some point. Following the implications of Paul's words, he himself will be kicked out of every church he joins. So how can this be reconciled using the Word?

Which is the worse sinner, one who does one sin over and over and can't stop, or the one who goes from one to the next and can't stop. Why aren't we treating them the same. Verses are pretty clear that sin is sin and the punishment is the same whether it is the "sin jumping" kind we see so much of, or the constant one single sin person?

I still would like to know if you think that the person who can't stop sinning is saved or not?

 

The point that is being missed here isn't the sin question, but lifestyle.

Those who choose a lifestyle of purposely serving the flesh and have no desire to live for Christ are the ones being addressed in Mathew and 1 Corinthians.

We all struggle daily with sin, but some just don't care and live a life that is no different than the unredeened.

When one is truly saved their desire is to please the Saviour not the flesh. When we fail we are grieved, because of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

It is the churches responsiblity to deal with those who deliberately choose a lifestyle that brings reproach to the assembly. No the numbers will not decrease signifintly as the Lord gives the increase and will honor an obedient church.

The members are placed in the body by the Lord, not men, we are just His instruments to bring them in.

Ernie

 

Is that because these other sins
are easier to ignore
or because we are comfortable with them
or are they just accepted by the congragation as sin that can't be overcome by many people.

and/or is it because the church has drawn a line between which sin it accepts and which it won't.