John 12:47-48

These verses are Christ's mission statement for his first coming to the world: He came not in judgement, but for salvation.

Those who rejected him would be judged by his word, not at this first coming, but at the last day.

I think that using them to try to say something about the extent of the atonement is going beyond the idea Jesus was trying to get across to his listeners.

 

The word "world" is used differently depending on the context in the Bible. Biblical Calvinists and anti-Calvinists have gone round and round on this for centuries. But a simple reading of the Bible shows that the word "world" does not, and cannot, always mean every single person who will ever live on the earth.

Taken out of context, anyone can "prove" lots of false doctrines using verses of the Bible.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

You are in error here, Mark. "World" in this context, being spoken to a Jewish audience, would have meant Jews and Gentiles. In your rabid anti-Biblical Calvinism you are trying to force the use of the word "elect" into this verse, and it just plum won't work.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Ahh, come on. World in this passage cannot be talking about all individual people. Jesus' mission in the first advent was salvation for the world, which he accomplishes by saving people out of the world. If his mission was to save all individual people, then his mission failed miserably.

When he comes a second time, his mission will be judgment for the world, which he accomplishes by judging all those who reject him and his word.

 

1) The word "world" is not being limited. It includes all classes of people that make up Jews and Gentiles.

2) That has got to be the silliest thing you have said yet in this forum, Mark. Thanks for the laugh.

Have a great day, my friend.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 16, 2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Mark you're right on the money with this verse..World means "WORLD"

Calvinist like to play terminology games to try to confuse people..Like the word "world" they like to pick and choose when they want to accept it as Every man. They won't ever take the Bible in context or at its face value.

"I came not to Judge the world but to save the world" Jn 12:46

"For God So loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER should believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life". Jn.3:16

"Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.." Acts 11:18

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE to repent" acts 17:30

"he hath given assurance to ALL men, in that he hath raised him from the dead" Acts 17:31

"for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowlege of truth."

"Of How much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHERE WITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace" Heb 10:29

Mark you're right..the Calvinist doctrine crumbles at the word of The Lord.

 

I typed this verse wrong..it should read as follows:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was santified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the spirit of grace?" (Heb.10:29)

 

I understand that the Bible teaches the doctrines of God's amazing grace throughout. The Bible certainly does not teach the self-salvation by man's corrupted free will while he is spiritually dead and separated from God that you and other non-Calvinists teach.

Got it?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

There you go again - misrepresenting the snot out of non-calvinists. Will you please read a little more before continually making such asinine statements?

 

Scott,

I am an accountant by trade. I'm just cutting to the bottom line.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Scott,

I am an accountant by trade. I'm just cutting to the bottom line.

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Then you're pulling a spiritual Arthur Andersen here.

 

That's a good one, Scott. Blindsided me for once.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Your absolutly correct Ken..The Bible doen't teach self-salvation nor does it teach that man can will any other man or himself to be saved..

However..the Bible says if you recieve him and believe then you will be saved.

"He came to his own and HIS OWN RECIEVED him not"

But as many as RECIEVED HIM to THEM (those who recieve) Gave he power to be the son's of God even to THEM that BELEIVE on his name"

which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God.

It's God's will to Save man.."Who WILL have all me to be saved, and to come to the Knowledge of God" Tim.4

All man has to do is accept and believe

"Sirs what Must I do to be saved?"
They said BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"

 

Shilo,

The differences in this forum are not over the necessity to repent and believe and live a life of holiness. The discussion centers around three options. 1)Whether all men have a natural ability to do this(free will), or 2)does God give the same, equal chance to every man by enabling him to come part of the way to Christ but leaving it up to man to finish the task(free will), or 3) does God do all of the work in bringing man to Christ and in preserving him as He brings him to glory(free grace) as man responds with the new heart God has given him.

I contend that options 1 and 2 amount to self-salvation as man must contribute something before he is regenerated and is given a new heart and new nature. Option 3 gives all of the glory to God, not just in lip service but in practicality as well, as it is God who is responsible for the whole salvation process as the saved person simply responds with the ability of a new heart and new nature graciously given to him by God in regeneration.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 17, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]