I Thess. 2:14-16

I'm new to the board, and I thought I'd observe some posts before I posted anything. I'm neither an Arminian nor Calvinist because I've not cast my lot with either side. There are still some issues about which I've a lot to learn. I'm not trying to prove either side of the debate, but I'm simply inquiring about specific verses of Scripture. Calvinists believe those whom God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world will assuredly be saved. Paul wrote in his first epistle to the Thessalonians, "For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost" (I Thessalonians 2:14-16). If the Gentiles to whom Paul was referring were the elect, it didn't matter whether he had the opportunity to preach the Gospel to them or not, correct? God is going to get the Gospel to them one way or the other if they're the elect, right?

[ July 24, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: BAPTIST27105 ]

Hi, Baptist27105. Welcome to the Baptist Board. I would like to recommend that you visit the "Welcome to the Baptist Board.com" forum and introduce yourself to everyone. Thanks. Happy posting.

rlvaughn, moderator

Originally posted by BAPTIST27105:
If the Gentiles to whom Paul was referring were the elect, it didn't matter whether he had the opportunity to preach the Gospel to them or not, correct? God is going to get the Gospel to them one way or the other if they're the elect, right?

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This is one of the most frequent misconceptions and misrepresentations of the calvinist position. If they are elect, they will receive the gospel. So it does matter. When God ordains the ends, he also ordains the means. There is no necessary conflict here.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
This is one of the most frequent misconceptions and misrepresentations of the calvinist position. If they are elect, they will receive the gospel. So it does matter. When God ordains the ends, he also ordains the means. There is no necessary conflict here.[/QB]

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So then, by extension, we don't have a choice as Christians whether or not we will witness, since it was ordained by God from the beginning? Even with our new natures, we're still "forced" to witness?

For example, there are plenty of Christians who have never witnessed to a person. Was that ordained by God? Is it God's will for these people not to share their faith? There are a lot of problems that I can see if God ordains such things.

However, from an Arminian position, we are commanded to preach the gospel. We do so because we love God and wish to do His will. If we don't, it's our own fault, not God's.

If they are elect, they will receive the gospel. So it does matter. When God ordains the ends, he also ordains the means.

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Paul wrote, "...for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost" (I Thessalonians 2:16). If Paul knew all the elect would hear the Gospel anyway, why would he write something to this effect? If God ordains the means as well as the end, Paul should've left it at that and come to the conclusion it wasn't God's will for him to preach the Gospel to those Gentiles, right? Instead, Paul blamed those Jews and declared the wrath of God on them. Now, why would all that be necessary if the elect are going to hear the Gospel with no question about it?

(REMEMBER: I'm neither an Arminian nor Calvinist because I've not cast my lot with either side. There are still some issues about which I've a lot to learn. I'm not trying to prove either side of the debate, but I'm simply inquiring about specific verses of Scripture.)

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
So then, by extension, we don't have a choice as Christians whether or not we will witness, since it was ordained by God from the beginning? Even with our new natures, we're still "forced" to witness?

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<SIGH> Do you ever read and think??? Do you just have stock answers you spout? If it is something you want to do, it is not being forced. It is the product of your new nature which after God was created in righteousness and true holiness. If you do not want to share the good news with people, then you may have other problems.

However, from an Arminian position, we are commanded to preach the gospel. We do so because we love God and wish to do His will. If we don't, it's our own fault, not God's.

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I think that is true from a Calvinist position.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Do you ever read and think???

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Not the most pastorly comment I've heard in my life.

Do you just have stock answers you spout? If it is something you want to do, it is not being forced. It is the product of your new nature which after God was created in righteousness and true holiness. If you do not want to share the good news with people, then you may have other problems.

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So those who don't share their faith are not saved? What are you implying? My point is that not everyone with a "new" nature lives a holy life, even thogh they have been imbued with holiness. Why do a large percentage of Christians NOT share their faith, even though it is part of their new nature.

Scott Emmerson,

Some Christians hid their faith under that bushel basket. They are ashamed to take a stand for Christ. I am sure there are many more reasons for not witnessing.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Scott Emmerson,

Some Christians hid their faith under that bushel basket. They are ashamed to take a stand for Christ. I am sure there are many more reasons for not witnessing.

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I agree with you completely. We do not lose our free will when we become Christians. What are some reasons I dont' share my faith as often as I should? Laziness, fear, and the times I'd rather be doing something for me than others. It's also a lot easier to preach from a pulpit than to do one-on-one evangelism.

Scott, pardon me for saying so, but you seem a little inconsistent in your doctrine. You teach everybody has a free will, and salvation only comes through the preached word of God. Upon hearing the gospel, the sinner must believe. What, then, is the horrible sin you are committing of sending lost souls to hell by the minute since you could be doing something about it? Just a thought.

Originally posted by BAPTIST27105:
Scott, pardon me for saying so, but you seem a little inconsistent in your doctrine. You teach everybody has a free will, and salvation only comes through the preached word of God. Upon hearing the gospel, the sinner must believe. What, then, is the horrible sin you are committing of sending lost souls to hell by the minute since you could be doing something about it? Just a thought.

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Part of growing as a Christian includes learning more about the faith. I think the sin is not in not going 24/7. The sin is not following what God wants you to do. If God says, "Go," we must go. (read Isaiah 6). God orders my steps - if I'm out and about and God lays a soul upon my heart, I must go. Failing to do so is sin. Many people have been called to missions. I have not. I am a therapist. By doing so, I am fulfilling what God wants me to do.

In my daily interactions with others here in Ocala, I have to continue to show the love and grace of God to them. In doing so, I am being obedient to the Great Commission.

I hope that clears up my "doctrine" a little more for you. I would maintain that the majority of people on both sides of the coin would agree.

Matt. 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

2 Thess. 3:14
And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.

2 Timothy 1:12
For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

Oops, Ray and Scott, this is probably a bad place to include these passages about being ashamed.

According to Christ, to be ashamed of Him, is the same as being lost.

this is strictly my opinion and an observation...i know we can all be guilty of this at one time or another but it blows my mind at the arrogance and stiff necked attitude that coms out of the calvinist camp here on the board. im sorry when ive gotten in the flesh about certain issues....our faith is in Christ...not some mans theology.

Originally posted by doug44:
our faith is in Christ...not some man's theology.

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Amen.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

'According to Christ being ashamed of Him is the same as being lost.'

That is a real streeetch! Where did you get that idea? If you are really saved and don't methodically witness to Him, does not mean that you are lost again. Only a wild, Arminian would believe that kind of idea.

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
According to Christ, to be ashamed of Him, is the same as being lost.[/QB]

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In that case, the number of CHristians in the world is exponentially plunging. Read Leonard Sweet or Barna on the willingness for Christians to share their faith.