The Myth of Free Will

If I might jump in and offer a viewpoint ... This question is only a question if a God who is sovereign over salvation is not sovereign over the preaching of his word. Most people have it the other way around. They want to believe that God is sovereign in the affairs of life and they take great comfort that when tragedy happens, "God does all things well." Yet when it comes to salvation, they want him to stay out of it. Here, you pose the opposite. A suggestion that we believe in a God who can and will save, but might leave himself open to the possibility that a preacher will not preach. I don't think that is a possibility. Where God ordains the ends, he also ordains the means.

Consider 2 Tim 2:9-10 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. Notice that Paul endures hardship for his preaching so that the elect will be saved. This points out that they were elect before they were saved (contrary to the belief of some that election is the result of belief; here it is clearly prior to belief). It also points out that Paul was willing to suffer for the sake of preaching so that they would be saved by his testimony and message. He taught, not on the hopes that some would be saved, but rather in absolute confidence that God's elect would come to salvation. This is a far cry from the arminian preacher todays who hopes that someone will respond to his message; Paul knew they would. To me, this is the great comfort of preaching. God is working through it to call our for himself a people from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

[ October 20, 2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Well said, Pastor Larry.

 

Ken Hamilton,

You fail to recognize that God made us, all of us in his image, and that image includes free will. If we have free will in one aspect of humanity, then we have free will in every aspect of humanity. There can be no limitations such as you impose. It matters not that our nature is a fallen nature, free will works in whatever condition we may find ourselves. We have the ability to choose to believe or not believe as we see fit. It is not simply a Christian spiritual thing, but it is a spiritual thing.

Just how does regeneration come to the individual human? It cannot come before the individual comes to belief in Jesus. NNE is regenerated that does not choose to be regenerated. Belief (faith) cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So one must hear and believe before one can be regenerated! Believe it or not!

 

So you think that grace saves you?

Grace really has no power to save one. However without grace, one cannot be saved. Grace is the environment that God established whereby all men, righteous or evil, can hear the Word of God and choose to believe or remain in darkness. Grace does not impose itself into the decision making process. Grace is like the stadium where sporting events are decided. The decision does not depend on the place but how the teams play. Grace does not determine the outcome of our lives, but provides the environment in which we can live our lives. God's Grace does not constrain us in any way, but it does constrain how God's other attributes effect us. With out Grace, God's Justice would end our sinful lives. Sin and holiness cannot cohabitate.

For by Grace (the environment)are ye saved through faith (belief). Faith is what saves, Not Grace!

 

So if our free will is a part of the image of God, then our free will must be like God's free will. Which brings us to an interesting point. Can God do anything at all or is he limited? The Bible teaches that God cannot do anything at all, that he is indeed limited. He cannot be unfaithful (2 Tim 2). He cannot lie (Titus 1:2). What causes these limitations??? His nature. God by nature is faithful and cannot be otherwise. God by nature is truth and cannot be otherwise. Therefore, God is limited by his own nature, yet his freedom is not compromised.

Are you suggesting that God is not free because he cannot do everything?? Or are you suggesting that man's freedom is not a part of the image of God but is indeed different than the image of God?

BTW, you forgot to include some scriptural teaching on free will being a part of the image of God in man. Why?

 

It is not God's free will that limits him. God is holy, in him there is no sin. Unfaithfulness and lies are sin. Can God Sin? If yes, then God's free will can also be manifested in sin.

Free will is not part of the essence of God, nor of the essence of man. It is what the person, be it God or man, does with what He is that constitutes the person's free will. Since we humans are not holy because of sin, our free will can be expressed in both righteousness and sinfulness. God, on the other hand cannot express his free will in anything but holiness, grace, mercy, justice, love, etc., for those are what God is. There is no sin in our Holy God, therefore His freewill cannot exhibit itself in sin.

As I said above, free will comes with the package of the essence of who and what we are. Free will is the modus operandi of the being.

If God could be limited in any way, then he would not be God. If He violates his own self, then He is less than God.

My oh my, do you desire that I post the whole bible? God gave us a brain with which to think on these things. If you think on the essence of God as it is delivered through out the Scriptures, you may start to arrive at understanding the essence of God. As for a single scriptural reference that describes the true essence of God, it would have to be the one where God told Moses to tell the captive children of Israel that I AM has sent him.

 

Yes, Chappie, we all know what your agenda is.

 

Yes, Chappie, we all know what your agenda is.</font>[/QUOTE]Rev. G.
You have another insurmountable problem now. You love the lost. We buddies now.

 

here you have hit on the truth and this is what I was emphasizing. You said "God cannot express his free will" in certain ways. When Calvinists says that "Man cannot express his free will in certain ways" we are told that we deny free will. This is the hole in your theory and what causes it not to stand up. God is free but cannot contradict his nature. Man is free but also cannot contradict his nature. Freedom is freedom. Man's nature is sinful; he cannot contradict it; he can only express his free will in sin.

Actually what you said was that free will was not of the essence of God or man if my memory serves me correctly.

God is limited according to 2 Tim 2:10 -- he cannot deny himself. Are you therefore argument that God is not God because he is limited by himself?

[/qb]Not at all ... just a verse that demonstrates that free will as you define it is a part of the image of God. Or do you not have a verse that says such??

I have thought much on the essence of God delievered through Scripture and find it overwhelming to try to comprehend the God that we saves us. The finite brain he gave me struggles with understanding the infinite perfections of God. However, I take him at his word and leave what is not in his word up to him.

[ October 21, 2002, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

That's not a problem, Chappie, that's a privilege!