THose Who Haven't Heard

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Anyone who comes to the Father does so by means of Christ--whether they have heard of Christ or not. This is because of the universality of the Light of Christ, given to every human being, as I believe John 1:9 and other verses teach. Concerning Peter's words which you quoted, Robert Barclay, early Quaker theologian (converted from Calvinism, BTW) says, and I concur: "I confess there is no other name to be saved by, but salvation lieth not in the literal but the experimental knowledge." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen! 'Tis grace, 'twas grace, 'twill always be grace.
Those of the OT didn't know the name of Christ, yet everyone of them were saved by Christ.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Joey,
You mean you actually agree with me? Wow!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike, we are brothers in Christ first. I am not against you or anyone else here. I just voice what I feel that scripture says. Paul and Peter had disagreements many times also, but they also agreed on many things. Alot of the things in which we disagree on will be burnt up with that hay wood and stuble, where we agree is much more important than where we disagree, don't you agree? Me and you have some disagreements, but where we agree or where we disagree it is not that we are right, but rather that God is right.

God speed.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
I realize what I'm going to say will be hard for a Calvinist to understand and even harder to accept, and I am prepared to receive charges of heresy, etc., but here goes: Anyone who comes to the Father does so by means of Christ--whether they have heard of Christ or not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These are two mutually exclusive propositions in this age and, once again, a direct contradiction of Scripture (Rom 10:13-17 -- the passage you have yet to deal with).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>universality of the Light of Christ, given to every human being, as I believe John 1:9 and other verses teach. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These verses talk about the image of God in man, not about salvific knowledge. There is no saving content in this.

YOu reply to Dr. Bob that "it is not unbiblical" but you have yet to offer any exegesis to support you. You cannot simply make a claim. It needs to be supported from Scripture. Until you submit yourself to Scripture, you will continue to make charges that could be considered what you call "heresy."

 

WHY is this thread 4 pages long? One either believes teh Scriptures, or they do not.

John 3:16-18 (ESV)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

And brothers, by engaging those who deny Scriptural truths, you are merely stroking worldly egos. There is a time to shake the dust from your shoes and move on!

Matthew 10:13-15 (ESV)
And if the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. [14] And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. [15] Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

 

Isn't there a verse thats says something like[she says without looking up the reference], God reveals Himself through His creation?
So I have a question/statement.
Can a person whose never heard about who God is come to reconize that there is a God, without knowing anything about Him? That there is a God greater then we are, who made all this? Who stands in awe at who this God is. Can he be saved by understanding he has done wrong thing without knowing it is called sin, without knowing the name of Jesus. To stand before an awe inspiring, mighty God and just repent. If this happened, would he be forgiven even if he did not know Jesus' name? I don't know I am asking.
And no I do not believe, only certain people can and will be saved, and do not wish to debate that either.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
Isn't there a verse thats says something like[she says without looking up the reference], God reveals Himself through His creation? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the Bible gives natural revelation as a reason why all men are condemned, because they are without excuse.

Romans 1:18-32 (ESV)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [21] For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
[24] Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, [25] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
[26] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [29] They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

But notice that this section is prefaced by:

Romans 1:16-17 (ESV)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

The gospel is the means God has ordained for the few to be saved.

To think that any can seek God and repent denies the biblical doctrines of total depravity and election.

Romans 3:10-12 (ESV)
as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
[11] no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
[12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

John 6:44-65 (ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. [45] It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— [46] not that anyone has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. [47] Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. [50] This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. [51] I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."
[52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" [53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. [54] Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. [55] For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. [56] Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. [58] This is the bread that came down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." [59] Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
[60] When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" [61] But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? [62] Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? [63] It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [64] But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) [65] And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail." Salvation is all of grace. God in His mercy chooses to save an elect few who are worhty of condemnation, but forgiven, justified by faith in Christ alone.

[ October 24, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Chris,
what I'm asking is what if they believe in who Jesus is, in Him, without knowing His name. That God had made provision for the forgiveness of sin. If they even wanted to repent, wouldn't that be God drawing them.

Like I said I don't know, I'm just asking. I really don't know one way or another, we are supose to be able to learn on the BB.

 

The thing I see here is that we tend to limit God's power. We aren't even able to turn toward God without His move toward us first in bringing the Holy Spirit's conviction (Jn. 6:44, quoted in an earlier post). If God draws someone to Himself through the Holy Spirit's conviction, even if they are on the back side of never where there is no translated Bible and nary a Christian in sight, He is also able to reveal to them the truth of Christ. One act is not more miraculous than the other. We "take for granted" the supernatural power of conviction then limit God's ability to reveal the truth to someone if there's not a Bible-totin' Christian handy. There is salvation in no other name than Jesus Christ, but God can reveal the name and the truth, just as well as He can bring conviction that draws to salvation.

But there is no other way in the door. God has made it clear that there is only one way to salvation, through Jesus Christ, and it's not "unfair" that many never hear the name of Jesus and therefore "never have a chance." That's the point Rom. 1 is making. We've all earned our death penalty for sin -- even those who have never heard of God or Christ. We are all without excuse.

-- Danette

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
[QB]Chris,
what I'm asking is what if they believe in who Jesus is, in Him, without knowing His name. That God had made provision for the forgiveness of sin. If they even wanted to repent, wouldn't that be God drawing them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would say no, one cannot believe in Christ without knowing his Name. In the Bible, the name of Christ is inexorably linked, indivisble with the person of Christ. One cannot know about Christ and be saved; one must know Christ intimately in order to enter into salvation. That is why the word foreknowledge is often used of God's relationship to the elect. It does not merely mean knowing beforehand as the Arminian explains, but it means to know intimately in love, as Adam knew Eve. It is a marriage relationship between Christ the Groom and his Bride, the Church.

Having said that, we can be assured that anyone, anywhere who desires to know God, knows they are a sinner, and is seeking an unknown Savior, that the grace of God is at work in him, and if so chosen, he will come to know Christ by the ministry of the preached word. Biblical examples are Cornelius and the Ethiopian eunuch.

 

Does that mean that a person is saved by the name of Jesus, or the work that Jesus did on the cross. They seem different to me.
I thought one did not know Jesus intimately until after their are saved. How can we know Him intimately before we are saved if we are seperated from God by sin?

 

Michael,
Thank you for clearing that up for me, the other side of this was making less and less sence.

 

Pator Larry, Chris, Dr. Bob or anyone else who it may concern.
1) By who and by who's blood were the OT saints saved by?

2) Not once in the OT is Jesus ever directly mentioned, so are they all in hell?