A Practical Question for Secret Rapture, Pre-tribulationists

Again we go back to the same individuals who cannot get the idea that the Rapture is not considered the Second Coming of Jesus. A lot of people uses that terminology but it is incorrect.

The second coming of Jesus is exactly like the first coming. He was Born on Earth. He walked the Earth. The second coming of Jesus will be when he physically once more walks the Earth.

He does not physically touch the Earth during the rapture.

Again it seems like so many people have a judgement wish. They want to be here when God pours out his wrath. Well, be my guest.
I want no part of his wrath and I don't believe he will pour it out on his church and anyone who believes he will does not understand God at all.

Originally posted by hrhema:

Again it seems like so many people have a judgement wish. They want to be here when God pours out his wrath. Well, be my guest.

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Believing that the church will be here during the trib has nothing to do with what we want, but rather what we see scripture saying. Come on, give us a little credit.

I want no part of his wrath and I don't believe he will pour it out on his church and anyone who believes he will does not understand God at all.

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I don't think anyone here believe God will pour out his wrath on his church, and if you think that's what posttrib is about, you do not understand posttrib at all.

God bless,
Brian

I cannot believe someone would say that they would prefer to go through the tribulation over a pet than go to be with our Lord.I really think there is a need to get priorities straight.

When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah He told Lot it was time to go. Did Lot worry about his pets? Did he worry about friends, family? Most likely he did. I expect that he agonized over the loss about to occure, but following God's command was his first priority!

Lots' wife on the other hand, had her heart planted here on earth and we know the price she paid. It might be that your heart is still too rooted in this world, just as hers was.

I don't want to sound mean or cold hearted, but as was mentioned; God watches over the least of His creation. It is His choice what happens to each and every creature who will remain during the tribulation, and quite frankly, if they are to die, it will not matter one wit if you are here to bury them or not.

As for the relatives we leave behind, no matter if they be young or old, firm or infirm, the fact that they remain will speak volumes about the choice they made; to remain unredeemed. They have refused to accept God's gift, and now they have to live, or die, with it.

Would I mourn those I left behind? Would I worry about thier souls? Would I wonder about who will feed my cat? I really don't know. I would like to think that the concern would remain, but as is written, "there will be no more sorrow...". It may be that God allows us concern, but removes the pain. I would like to think so.

Your brother in Christ,
shdwpoet

"Heaven goes by favour. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." -- Mark Twain

Blackbird,

You told it like it is really going to happen. What a prophetic word for the saints. When the saints are with the Lord, then there will be nothing but unregenerate people to fight over what we leave behind. But, God's people will be 'moving on up.' Praise be to our Savior!!! The horrendous judgments on the lost will begin as noted in Revelation six and toward the conclusion of John's manuscript. Because of the rejection of the majority, His love will have turned to utter hatred of the lost ones.

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

I don't think anyone here believe God will pour out his wrath on his church, and if you think that's what posttrib is about, you do not understand posttrib at all.

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But, Brian, God's wrath is going to be poured out upon the WHOLE earth! So if the church is here, where will the church be during the wrath?

When the Church is gone, the Holy Spirit will be gone, too....the Holy Spirit was sent to the Church as the Comforter. Christians, Christ in Us, and the Holy Spirit in Us...that is the ONLY reason the World is not totally utterly wicked and insane, because We are the Salt.

Once we are gone, once the Holy Spirit is gone, there will not be ONE OUNCE of Goodness left in the Earth...ALL will be Evil. Then the wrath of God begins. God will not put the Bride of Christ thru His wrath! The Wrath of God is for Judgment. The Church, the Bride will be spared the Judgment & Wrath of God---Jesus Bore that on the Cross. Because we live in the age of God's Grace, we do not understand His Judgment & His Wrath. Nor do we understand His Righteousness.

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
But, Brian, God's wrath is going to be poured out upon the WHOLE earth! So if the church is here, where will the church be during the wrath?

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There are two basic lines of thought:

1. that the "wrath" is extremely short, less than a day (ie. "day of wrath" is a common phrase, and many take it literally) - in other words, the very last day, after the tribulation, Christ returns, raptures the saints, and destroys his enemies in the day of wrath.

2. Others who see "wrath" as a longer time period see "tribulation" and "wrath" as different things: God's wrath is God's anger towards the unrighteous, tribulation is distress that all undergo. For example, the "tribulation" the saints endure is the result of Satan's wrath and man's wrath, not Gods. Remeber that the Israelites were *in* Egypt when God's anger came upon "all Egypt" (Deut 7:18), yet the anger was not directed at them.

When the Church is gone, the Holy Spirit will be gone, too...Once we are gone, once the Holy Spirit is gone, there will not be ONE OUNCE of Goodness left in the Earth...ALL will be Evil.

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The how is there a "great multitude" (Rev 7) saved during the trib, if there is only evil and there is no Holy Spirit?

I hope you realize I'm not trying to argue, just explain the position a bit better in response to your question.

Brian

Brian: The how is there a "great multitude" (Rev 7) saved during the trib, if there is only evil and there is no Holy Spirit?

Well, Brian, how were the OT people saved with no Holy Spirit then? Ah-Ha! You are confusing the Bride of Christ with the Guests/Friends of the Bridegroom.

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Brian: The how is there a "great multitude" (Rev 7) saved during the trib, if there is only evil and there is no Holy Spirit?

Well, Brian, how were the OT people saved with no Holy Spirit then? Ah-Ha! You are confusing the Bride of Christ with the Guests/Friends of the Bridegroom.

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Good questions. Hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I believe that the tribulation refers to difficulties that the church has faced throughout history and/or perhaps to a larger persecution of the church just before Christ returns.

The saints in the Old Testament were regenerated and given spiritual life by the Holy Spirit just as New Testament saints are. Remember what David said in the Old Testament?

(Psalm 51:11 NKJV) Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

One awaiting Christ's return,

Ken

[ June 15, 2002, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
Well, Brian, how were the OT people saved with no Holy Spirit then?

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This is one of the dangers I see in dispensational theology: can lead to two methods of salvation, when really there is only one.

1 Cor 10:1-4 says the OT saints ate the same spiritual meat and drank the same spiritual drink as us: Christ.

There is only one way to be saved. It is, and always has been, by grace through faith. The Holy Spirit renews us after we are saved (Titus 3:5), but there is only one way to salvation.

You are confusing the Bride of Christ with the Guests/Friends of the Bridegroom.

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Then John is also confused. In Revelation, he uses the word "church" to refer only to specific bodies of believers (ie "the church of Philadelphia"), never to believers in general. For that, he uses "saints", just like it is used throughout the rest of the NT. John says there are "saints" in Rev 8:4-5, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 16:6, 17:6 and 18:24. Two of those passages (14:12 and 17:6) even say these saints have the faith and testimony of Jesus. They have the same salvation, the same Saviour as you and I do. And what word is used to describe the Bride in Rev 19? Not "church", but "saints" (19:8). John not only makes no distinction between the saints inside the trib and those before it, but even ties them together in the Bride. It is dispensational theology that divides the bride up into pieces.

God bless,
Brian

BrianT,

The Day of wrath, the Day of the Lord and these kinds of statements mean that this is the beginning of day of His wrath.

All of these horrendous judgments from Revelation chapter six through Revelation chapter nineteen could not take place in one twenty-four hour day. After the rapture there will be seven years of Great Tribulation. The first half will be not too bad until the antichrist starts his rule over the whole earth. The last three and one half years will be unthinkable to our minds.

The Great Tribulation martyrs that you spoke about that enter Heaven [Rev. 7:9] will be there because they will have refused to say that the 'antichrist' is really God. Some way and some how they will have the strength to die for their faith. Revelation 20:4 tells us the method of their execution. They will lose their head by being beheaded. Revelation 13:15c tells us clearly that those who do not 'receive the mark of the beast' will be killed.

Those who think that the Book of Revelation is basicly figurative need to have their 'head' examined.

BrianT,

Dispensational theology does not divide the 'Bride' into pieces. All of God's people are one, but how they entered Heaven is significantly different.

The O.T. had the animal sacrifices. It was their obedience to this law that secured the saving benefits of Jesus in their souls. Under the subsequent era we come to Jesus directly by faith. In the Great Tribulation the saints will enter Heaven by being beheaded. [Rev. 20:4c]

The correct teaching of the Word of God indicates there were two distinct covenants. The first was the Old covenant and the second the New Covenant. [Hebrews 8:7] 'If the first covenant had been faultless, then shouldno place have been sought for the second.

In studying for my Th.D. I found a third covenant. The third covenant is found between Hebrews 8:6-13. After studying it, let me know if you can find it.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The Day of wrath, the Day of the Lord and these kinds of statements mean that this is the beginning of day of His wrath.

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Don't you take it literally?

All of these horrendous judgments from Revelation chapter six through Revelation chapter nineteen could not take place in one twenty-four hour day.

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That's not what I was getting at, sorry for the confusion. I was trying to say that some people see the "wrath" as only on the last day: that the majority of Revelation certainly contains "judgment", but "wrath" is reserved for the final day.

Looking for the word "wrath" in Revelation seems to support this idea. Consider:

1. The first time it is used is Rev 6:16-17 ("For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"), which is *after* the sixth seal. The events of the sixth seal include the sun darkening and the moon turning red. If this is the same event as described in Matt 24:29 (and why shouldn't it be? See the parallels of Matt 24 and Rev 6 at http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/rev_3.html ), then this "day of wrath" mentioned in Rev 6 is sometime "after the tribulation" of Matt 24:29.

2. The second time God's "wrath" appears in Rev is 11:18 ("...thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints..."). This too is at the end of things, *after* the 7th trumpet.

3. The next occurrence is 14:10, which speaks of it in a future tense, and 14:19, which even pretrib commentators place at Armageddon, when Christ's second coming (cf. 19:15)

But even if you disagree with this, my other comments on "wrath" still need to be considered. Numerous passages say God's wrath was or is already manifested (Rom 1:18, etc.), yet we're all still here. It is possible to be present during God's wrath, and not have that wrath directed at you. Precedents are all over scripture.

The Great Tribulation martyrs that you spoke about that enter Heaven [Rev. 7:9] will be there because they will have refused to say that the 'antichrist' is really God.

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Do you believe the trib saints are "appointed to wrath", or to "obtain salvation"?

Dispensational theology does not divide the 'Bride' into pieces. All of God's people are one,

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Do you believe OT saints, and/or "trib saints", are part of the "Bride"?

The correct teaching of the Word of God indicates there were two distinct covenants. The first was the Old covenant and the second the New Covenant.

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I agree. But I find verses that indicate they are not dispensed onto two different groups of people, but the same group of people.

In studying for my Th.D. I found a third covenant. The third covenant is found between Hebrews 8:6-13. After studying it, let me know if you can find it.

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I'll look at that when I get a chance, and let you know what I find.

God bless,
Brian

[ June 15, 2002, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The correct teaching of the Word of God indicates there were two distinct covenants. The first was the Old covenant and the second the New Covenant. [Hebrews 8:7] 'If the first covenant had been faultless, then shouldno place have been sought for the second.

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I would like to recommend an excellent book entitled In Defense of the Decalogue by Richard Barcellos. You can obtain it at www.founders.org/fpress/decalog.html .

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

...He does not physically touch the Earth during the rapture...

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I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to physically touch the Earth. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

...The horrendous judgments on the lost will begin as noted in Revelation six...

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Where does Revelation say the seals and trumpets are "judgments?" I believe God's judgment doesn't come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and none of them are directed at us Christians.

...the Holy Spirit will be gone...

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I don't believe the Holy Spirit will be gone because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

Dispensational theology does not teach that the Holy Spirit leaves the earth. I posted this already. The Holy Spirit somewhat changes His function or operation but people are always have been always and will always be saved because of the work of the Holy Spirit.

Eaglelives911, I agree with the pretrib position but you are not accurately representing it. On what Scriptural grounds do you assert that the Holy Spirit leaves.

BrianT,

Brian said, ‘Do you believe the Pretribulation saints are appointed to wrath or to obtain salvation?'

Good question. Apparently, because they are living for the antichrist to take their lives, I would say that they will go through the experience of God's judgments, but in the end as their lives are taken, they become that ‘ . . . great multitude from all nations . . . . ' mentioned in Revelation 7:9.

On the other hand, the 144,000 witnesses of Christ [Rev. 7:1-8] are sealed for God's service as His messengers and nothing can hurt them. It appears that after their mission is completed then the vengeful Lord [Hebrews 10:30] will start His horrendous judgments [Rev. chapters 8-19] against His enemies--those who have refused Christ and His atonement.

Brian said, ‘Do you think the O.T. saints/Tribulation saints will be a part of the Bride?'

I know some think the O.T. saints will rise at some future time after the rapture, but I believe that all of those who loved God from the time of Abel until the trumpet sounds will rise to be with Him. [I Thess. 4:17].

The Second Coming of Christ is separate from the rapture as noted in Rev. 19:11. In the rapture He comes for His saints; in the Second Coming He comes with His saints. In the rapture He comes to take His saints to Heaven; in the Second Coming He comes from Heaven with His people to destroy the wicked and to set up His Messianic Kingdom.

My best regards . . . .

Only the O.T. priest, prophets, and kings of Juda and Israel were given the Holy Spirit of God. The regular members of the sanctuary within the Israelite community were not indwelled by the Spirit. This is why Israel backslid so quickly and so often. Remember, Moses went into the mount called Sinai and before he got back down the mountain they already were worshipping a false God along with all kind of lude behavior. Why? Because they were not give the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Spirit is uniquely the ministry from the Day of Pentecost until the last day of grace is complete with the coming of Jesus for His people.

The Old Covenant people were saved by obediently bring the lamb to the sanctuary/Temple for sacrifice. When Moses gave the Law the people had to bring the lamb, plus keep the commandments and ordinances of the law. When they brought the lamb/dove God seeing their obedience, applied the atonement of Jesus to their lives. They were far from perfection but now God could look at them through the blood of Jesus and they were eternally accepted into covenant and a state of grace.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The regular members of the sanctuary within the Israelite community were not indwelled by the Spirit. This is why Israel backslid so quickly and so often. Remember, Moses went into the mount called Sinai and before he got back down the mountain they already were worshipping a false God along with all kind of lude behavior. Why? Because they were not give the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Spirit is uniquely the ministry from the Day of Pentecost until the last day of grace is complete with the coming of Jesus for His people.

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Sounds to me like the church is not a whole lot difference than ancient Israel. So perhaps there is not that much, if any, difference in the operation of the Holy Spirit between the two groups.

(Galatians 1:6 NKJV) I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brian said, ‘Do you believe the Pretribulation saints are appointed to wrath or to obtain salvation?'

Good question. Apparently, because they are living for the antichrist to take their lives, I would say that they will go through the experience of God's judgments, but in the end as their lives are taken,

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I think then you agree that "God's wrath" is not directed at them. Their presense proves that one can be present during "God's wrath", and that they can even be affected by the side-effects of God's wrath, without having God's wrath upon them.

The Second Coming of Christ is separate from the rapture as noted in Rev. 19:11.

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I don't see how 19:11 teaches this.

In the rapture He comes for His saints; in the Second Coming He comes with His saints.

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At this moment, there are saints in heaven and there are saints on earth. When he comes "with" his saints, he is bringing those from heaven. When he comes "for" his saints, he is coming for those still living. He comes both "with" and "for" his saints at the same time, joining the two groups together:

1 Thess 4:14-17 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

In the rapture He comes to take His saints to Heaven;

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There are no verses that say this. Scripture only says we will be with him, it does not say in heaven.

God bless,
Brian